Help me understand watches and value

Originally Posted by sfo423

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So, with a few obvious industry "ringers" out there, what are the best values for quality (meaning crystal, case, movements, etc) in the following ranges (or, if you have more appropriate ranges, please modify):

<$500
$500-$1.5k
$1.5k-$3k
$3k+

I won't comment on the sub US$1.5K other than, you can't go wrong with a mechanical Seiko if you are after anything with a substantial horological history. Other than that, I am afraid my knowledge of that category is limited.

As for the US$1.5K up to US$5K AND we are talking a brand new watch for someone looking to get their first mechanical wristwatch (horological emphasis rather than overt show of wealth) I'd recommend JLC without hesitation. Its possible to find some good second hand JLCs and for what you get, its a lot of bang for buck. If one is after a chrono, I'd suggest finding a second hand Zenith Chronomaster in steel. Try not to get it brand new as LVMH has really screwed with the price but a good search on the net and one may find one. Its not only a fast beat (36,000 ticks per second) column wheel chrono, it also has a moonphase, date, day and month function.

Gaz

Originally Posted by djf881

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Well, first of all, most cheap watches ($500 and below) will be quartz. Quartz uses an oscillating crystal to keep time and is powered by a battery, while mechanical watches keep time using a precise mechanical mechanism, and the watch is powered by kinetic energy stored in a spring.

Quartz is more accurate than clockwork, and can be machine manufactured. A $10 quartz digital from Casio will perform the function of telling you what time it is as well as a $50,000 Patek.

In fact, you can put a radio receiver into a cheap quartz watch, and it will get a signal from the atomic clock and sync itself automatically to the official time, and be absolutely spot-on perfect all the time for about $100. By contrast, a mechanical watch that attains a chronometer certification from the Swiss government will be between six seconds fast and four seconds slow within a 24 hour period.

Omega and Rolex comprise the bulk of certfied chronometers, so if you go up the scale in mechanical watches, once more, you're not paying for improvement in the timekeeping function. Many Omegas and Rolexes are within 2 seconds a day, which is as accurate as a mechanical watch can reasonably get.

What is treasured is that a high-end mechanical watch contains a very precise clockwork mechanism inside of it, and, with the most expensive watches, the mechanism will be very carefully finished and decorated by hand and exhibited with a sapphire crystal display back. The most expensive ones are manufactured in small quantities, entirely by hand, and include complications.

One example of a common complicated watch is a perpetual calendar. On a Rolex with a date function, there is a wheel that turns one notch every 24 hours advancing the date. It has 31 spaces on it, so 5 months of the year, Feb, Apr, June, Sept, and Nov., the date will have to be corrected manually because those months do not have 31 days. An annual calendar will keep track of the day, and the month, and will advance the date correctly on months that do not have 31 days. A perpetual calendar keeps track of what year it is, and will track the date correctly on leap years. All this is done using clockwork, and it is insanely complex, requires hundreds of precise parts and is insanely expensive. And on top of that the watch will still lose a couple of seconds a day, so you'll probably want to reset it at least a couple of times a year anyway. The thing exists primarily to be rare and intricate and painstakingly made by a master craftsman.

Probably the best way to think of it is that Seiko is Toyota, Omega is BMW, Rolex is Mercedes Benz, and Patek is Maserati. Omega and Rolex make a lot more watches than the smaller, more exclusive luxury brands, and they have expensive R&D costs that they can distribute over a lot of watches. Rolex rolled out a new specialized, high-performance ceramic for its rotating bezels, developed a new hairspring made out of a high-tech alloy that is more accurate through shocks and changes in position. Omega recently rolled out its coaxial escapement, which allows the watch to run for twice as long as other watches without a service. Rolexes and Omegas are also extremely accurate and precise. However, there are a lot of automated steps in the manufacture of these watches, while every piece of a Patek or a Vacheron Constantin will be made by hand. So the Patek and the Vacheron will be more expensive. Also, there will be more finishing and decoration on the Patek or VC movement, and those watches tend to have crystal casebacks to show off the movement, while Omega and Rolex have steel casebacks.

Wonderful write up.

Originally Posted by gazman70k

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I won't comment on the sub US$1.5K other than, you can't go wrong with a mechanical Seiko if you are after anything with a substantial horological history. Other than that, I am afraid my knowledge of that category is limited.

As for the US$1.5K up to US$5K AND we are talking a brand new watch for someone looking to get their first mechanical wristwatch (horological emphasis rather than overt show of wealth) I'd recommend JLC without hesitation. Its possible to find some good second hand JLCs and for what you get, its a lot of bang for buck. If one is after a chrono, I'd suggest finding a second hand Zenith Chronomaster in steel. Try not to get it brand new as LVMH has really screwed with the price but a good search on the net and one may find one. Its not only a fast beat (36,000 ticks per second) column wheel chrono, it also has a moonphase, date, day and month function.

Gaz

Good selections. What about the OPs desire 'militaire' style, although we are bumping the price point to >$1.5k?

Originally Posted by sfo423

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So, with a few obvious industry "ringers" out there, what are the best values for quality (meaning crystal, case, movements, etc) in the following ranges (or, if you have more appropriate ranges, please modify):

<$500
$500-$1.5k
$1.5k-$3k
$3k+

<$500 - Seiko
$500-$1.5k - Seiko
$1.5k-$3k - Seiko
$3k+ - Seiko


I started writing that as a joke; and realised it's my honest opinion.

Originally Posted by 0b5cur1ty

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$3k+ - Seiko
I understand things like a Credor sonnerie would fitt into that category, no?

Originally Posted by speedster.8

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I understand things like a Credor sonnerie would fitt into that category, no?
Yes, though it would really need another category to be added (I believe it's around the $40k mark).

Most Grand Seiko models will also come in above $3k (some only just above).

Just my opinion here, but I think expensive watches are tacky. I think they're trying to make a &quot;Look at me!!! I have an expensive watch!!&quot; statement. When called out on it, the wearer typically drones into some spiel about accuracy and movement and whatever other nonsense the jewler spewed to them before taking the 30% markup.

You're not a scientist. You aren't calculating the speed of light. So any type of time that is 2-3 seconds accurate will suffice for you. Especially considering that not everyone else's watch is set to the same time.

You see, time is relative. If you have a $5000 ultra accurate time piece, what does it matter when the rest of the world is using $3 Seikos or the digital clock on their cell phone? Are you going to show up to work at EXACTLY the right time with your ultra precise movements while everyone else strolls in a few seconds later? Is that worth the price paid? Your bus driver doesn't have an ultra accurate watch and neither does your wife who's coming to pick you up. So there's you, and your silly little watch, and everyone else ignoring &quot;your time&quot;.

It's jewelry. Jewelry that men justify to themselves through complex mechanics because we normally don't accept that we should adorn ourselves with pointless expensive items. But that's what 'high end watches&quot; are. They're the diamond earrings of the male world. Admit it and get on with yourselves. Just say; &quot;It's jewelry&quot;. You sound ridiculous explaining the complexities of your rube goldberg device in a world that technology has deemed antique.

Originally Posted by ChicagoJohn

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"It's jewelry". You sound ridiculous explaining the complexities of your rube goldberg device in a world that technology has deemed antique.

What I would expect to hear from someone who shops at Loehmanns.

Its a complex mechanical machine that takes on an art form. The same can be said about cars, clothing, art, etc. Your just poor and have no taste.

Wealth and taste are mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by ChicagoJohn

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Just my opinion here, but I think expensive watches are tacky. I think they're trying to make a "Look at me!!! I have an expensive watch!!" statement. When called out on it, the wearer typically drones into some spiel about accuracy and movement and whatever other nonsense the jewler spewed to them before taking the 30% markup.

You're not a scientist. You aren't calculating the speed of light. So any type of time that is 2-3 seconds accurate will suffice for you. Especially considering that not everyone else's watch is set to the same time.

You see, time is relative. If you have a $5000 ultra accurate time piece, what does it matter when the rest of the world is using $3 Seikos or the digital clock on their cell phone? Are you going to show up to work at EXACTLY the right time with your ultra precise movements while everyone else strolls in a few seconds later? Is that worth the price paid? Your bus driver doesn't have an ultra accurate watch and neither does your wife who's coming to pick you up. So there's you, and your silly little watch, and everyone else ignoring "your time".

It's jewelry. Jewelry that men justify to themselves through complex mechanics because we normally don't accept that we should adorn ourselves with pointless expensive items. But that's what 'high end watches" are. They're the diamond earrings of the male world. Admit it and get on with yourselves. Just say; "It's jewelry". You sound ridiculous explaining the complexities of your rube goldberg device in a world that technology has deemed antique.

Historically, it's the male who wore more jewelry.

Originally Posted by ChicagoJohn

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Wealth and taste are mutually exclusive.

Really?

Originally Posted by ChicagoJohn

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"It's jewelry". You sound ridiculous explaining the complexities of your rube goldberg device in a world that technology has deemed antique.

You know what? I had that same opinion 10 years ago. In fact, my only watch was a swatch that I had from high school and after that, I didn't wear a wrist watch for many years, until I bought my very first mechnical wrist watch. I was then bitten by the bug.

I feel that your assessment is based on your perception that people who enjoy wrist watches are showing off their wealth (not sure what a "rube goldberg" but I get your imagery).

Indeed, there are those that will go on about how much they paid for their watch and will indefinitely own a gold rolex to overtly signal wealth. Unfortunately, this occurs with everything that we discuss on this forum from shoes to suits to cufflinks.

Unfortunately, you seemed to have overlooked the fact that there are those who truly enjoy collecting mechanical wristwatches. Not to overtly signal wealth but as a hobby. For example, I know a collector who has a few hundred Pateks including highly complicated pieces, but if you met him on the street, you would never take him to be a Patek collector because his favourite piece is a beat up vintage Patek from the 50's. Very stealth wealth. The big difference? There are those that buy watches for themselves, and those who buy watches for others. It seems that your acquintances fall into the latter category. To futher the watch / shoe analogy, this is similar to someone buying a Prada shoe to show off that its a Prada shoe versus someone who buys a Roberto Ugolini because Roberto is a true craftsman.

Also, many collectors know that mechanical wrist watches are no where as accurate as quartz movements and that's one of the main appeals for those who collect wrist watches. Indeed, those who expouse whatever a jewelry sales person tells them are indeed uneducated and fits your generalisation. But its a generalisation nonetheless. I wanted to point out to you that those who are passionate about wristwatches are more covert about their pieces.

Just a counterpoint to your rather strong but generalised opinion.

Cheers
Gaz

^^

That was a really good write-up. Perhaps it is just something I may never understand.

My generalizations were mostly from the chavs who buy them to flaunt them, you were absolutely correct in that. It might be the real collectors have never stood out to me b/c they aren't blatantly showing it off or talking about it. They buy the watch for themselves, so there's no need to be flashy with it.

All you have to do is watch this video and you will understand and appreciate the price that some amazing watches carry.

Me again... so where do pocket watches fit in this? Who's the go-to brand in this regard?

I have two watches that are worth more than $5k, a JLC and a Rolex (handed down to me). Hardly anyone ever notices the JLC. In the case they do, they'll inevitably ask what brand it is. When I tell them, they tend to dismiss it. On the other hand, the Rolex gets a lot of attention and it actually makes me a bit uncomfortable.

My cell phone definitely keeps better time than either of those watches. I actually have to set the time on the Rolex everytime I wear it. The JLC has an 8 day power reserve and I wear it more often so I don't quite have this problem.

I don't consider myself a &quot;real collector&quot; because I just don't have the money for it but I don't buy my watches for others, either.