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Ghosts?

acidboy

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If Bigfoot has been cited all these years, could it be possible he's really a ghost?
 

rxcats

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Originally Posted by The Deacon
It is said that near the end Carl spoke of God as would a believer. Don't use him as your linchpin.

This is bull. If it "is said", it wasn't by his wife.

Ann Druyan, in the epilogue to Sagan's last book, Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium (published posthumously in 1997),

"Contrary to the fantasies of the fundamentalists, there was no deathbed conversion, no last minute refuge taken in a comforting vision of a heaven or an afterlife. For Carl, what mattered most was what was true, not merely what would make us feel better. Even at this moment when anyone would be forgiven for turning away from the reality of our situation, Carl was unflinching. As we looked deeply into each other's eyes, it was with a shared conviction that our wondrous life together was ending forever."
 

nyc_gaucho

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Originally Posted by rxcats
This is bull. If it "is said", it wasn't by his wife.

Ann Druyan, in the epilogue to Sagan's last book, Billions and Billions: Thoughts on Life and Death at the Brink of the Millennium (published posthumously in 1997),

"Contrary to the fantasies of the fundamentalists, there was no deathbed conversion, no last minute refuge taken in a comforting vision of a heaven or an afterlife. For Carl, what mattered most was what was true, not merely what would make us feel better. Even at this moment when anyone would be forgiven for turning away from the reality of our situation, Carl was unflinching. As we looked deeply into each other's eyes, it was with a shared conviction that our wondrous life together was ending forever."


carl sagan was a great man who dedicated his life to shepherding the human species through the minefields of our own ignorance...and, everything i've ever read or heard about him gives me no indication that he did not die as he lived...an agnostic...never an atheist...

he resisted to be labeled as such...because he thought it was equally wrong (and dangerous) to unwaveringly accept something as truth, without any hard evidence, as it was to likewise negate it...

but, if you ask me, there is not much greater evidence of a god than the fact that a man with such vision and conviction would give so much of himself, all to help save a species like ours, so seemingly doomed to destroy itself...the hope in his heart is a miracle
 

JLibourel

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Another brief ghost story:

This one doesn't involve anybody I knew but did involve one of the heroes of my youth (and today, for that matter), Col. Jim Corbett, famed for killing large numbers of man-eating tigers and leopards, even at an advanced age.

In his classic The Man-Eaters of Kumaon in the chapter on "The Thak Man-Eater," he tells of hearing the screams of a man being killed by the tigress as he was sitting up one night for her. The weird part was, the man had been killed several weeks earlier, and no other human was in the vicinity when Corbett heard the screams. The screams also frightened several deer in the vicinity, so they were no figment of his imagination.

Lest you argue that it was the cry of some night bird or jungle beast, this might have applied to a lesser man than Corbett, but he had spent 60+ years in the jungles of northern India. Nobody knew the jungle and its wildlife like Corbett, and he never would have made such a mistake.
 

jkw

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After reading the whole thread, I can't help but feel a bit chilled... Never felt anything before, but I am now quite uncomfortable. I can't help but look behind myself every now and then, and afterwards it freaks me out... There's a mirror above my desk, and I'm avoiding it just in case hehe

But when I think about it, there probably isn't even enough space for a ghost in my room
laugh.gif
 

rxcats

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Originally Posted by nyc_gaucho
carl sagan was a great man who dedicated his life to shepherding the human species through the minefields of our own ignorance...and, everything i've ever read or heard about him gives me no indication that he did not die as he lived...an agnostic...never an atheist...

he resisted to be labeled as such...because he thought it was equally wrong (and dangerous) to unwaveringly accept something as truth, without any hard evidence, as it was to likewise negate it...

but, if you ask me, there is not much greater evidence of a god than the fact that a man with such vision and conviction would give so much of himself, all to help save a species like ours, so seemingly doomed to destroy itself...the hope in his heart is a miracle




That depends on how you define god, agnostic and atheist. Dr. Sagan was a humanist and free-thinker. He discussed the concept of god in his book, Broca's Brain: Reflections on the Romance of Science (published in 1979),

"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard, who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by 'God,' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

The "god" that Dr. Sagan describes above, is not the concept most theists hold dear. I would think most Christians would consider that to be atheism. Again, it is all in your definition.

Another of his most famous quotes (from Cosmos) pretty much sums up his thoughts on ghosts and other "paranormal phenomena",

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
 

nyc_gaucho

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Originally Posted by rxcats
That depends on how you define god, agnostic and atheist. Dr. Sagan was a humanist and free-thinker. He discussed the concept of god in his book, Broca's Brain: Reflections on the Romance of Science (published in 1979),

"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard, who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by 'God,' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."

The "god" that Dr. Sagan describes above, is not the concept most theists hold dear. I would think most Christians would consider that to be atheism. Again, it is all in your definition.

Another of his most famous quotes (from Cosmos) pretty much sums up his thoughts on ghosts and other "paranormal phenomena",

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."


god = a creative intelligence

atheist = one who believes that there is no god and that our lives are a mere coincidence of nature

agnostic = one who hasn't been persuaded enough to believe or disbelieve in the existence of a god

"I have some discomfort with both believers and with nonbelievers when their opinions are not based on facts ... If we don't know the answer, why are we under so much pressure to make up our minds, to declare our allegiance to one hypothesis or the other?" Carl Sagan

the mysteries of life are so ponderous that even a great mind like carl sagan's was humbled by them...this makes it all the more ridiculous when the garden-variety atheists condescend to "believers" and pretend to know the truth behind the ultimate secrets of the universe
 

rxcats

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Originally Posted by nyc_gaucho
god = a creative intelligence

atheist = one who believes that there is no god and that our lives are a mere coincidence of nature

agnostic = one who hasn't been persuaded enough to believe or disbelieve in the existence of a god

"I have some discomfort with both believers and with nonbelievers when their opinions are not based on facts ... If we don't know the answer, why are we under so much pressure to make up our minds, to declare our allegiance to one hypothesis or the other?" Carl Sagan

the mysteries of life are so ponderous that even a great mind like carl sagan's was humbled by them...this makes it all the more ridiculous when the garden-variety atheists condescend to "believers" and pretend to know the truth behind the ultimate secrets of the universe


The definitions you give above are the traditional ones. This is how you and I, and probably most others, would define the terms. It is not, however, the definition that Carl Sagan refers to. He did multiple interviews and books where he touches on the subject.

In a 1996 interview with NPR's Talk of the Nation, Sagan said (when asked about religious beliefs): "Where's the evidence? Now, the word God is used to cover a wide variety of very different ideas, ranging maybe from the idea of an outsized light-skinned male with a long white beard who sits in a throne in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow--for which there is no evidence, none at all--to the view of Einstein, of Spinoza, which is essentially that God is the sum total of the laws of nature. And since there are laws of nature ... if that's what you mean by God, then of course there's a God. So everything depends on the definition of God."

I don't "condescend" to believers. Most of my family (save one nephew) and virtually all of my close friends are believers to some degree. I certainly do not pretend to know the truth behind the ultimate secrets of the universe either. It is a wondrous thing and we will never have all of the answers. I simply don't believe that the answer to the unknown is some form of magic or supernatural being.
 

blantonator

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Originally Posted by The Deacon
It is said that near the end Carl spoke of God as would a believer. Don't use him as your linchpin.
Claims like yours is why Dawkins plans on be recorded on his death bed. rxcats - my original post was very similar to yours... well said.
 

nyc_gaucho

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Originally Posted by rxcats
I don't "condescend" to believers. Most of my family (save one nephew) and virtually all of my close friends are believers to some degree. I certainly do not pretend to know the truth behind the ultimate secrets of the universe either. It is a wondrous thing and we will never have all of the answers. I simply don't believe that the answer to the unknown is some form of magic or supernatural being.


i'm glad if you are not the type to condescend (although your signature certainly suggests otherwise)...i also don't believe in any magic or supernatural being...but, that is because i don't believe that anything is supernatural...rather, i believe there are many things of a nature not yet fathomable by our limited minds...which is why i think it's important, from time to time, to quiet our minds and allow your other faculties to inform you a bit...you never know where that might lead you
 

JLibourel

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Originally Posted by acidicboy
If Bigfoot has been cited all these years, could it be possible he's really a ghost?

Actually, there are those who argue that bigfoots, mothmen, UFO aliens and similar weird and monstrous creatures are intruders from another dimension. I am in no position to discuss this. There is certainly nothing offensive to contemporary notions of matter and mind in the possibility of a giant, ape-like creature lurking undetected in the rain forests of the Northwest and perhaps elsewhere and unclassified by science, however improbable it may seem.
 

Bird's One View

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Originally Posted by JLibourel
Actually, there are those who argue that bigfoots, mothmen, UFO aliens and similar weird and monstrous creatures are intruders from another dimension. I am in no position to discuss this.
Heh. It has been my sad experience that most of those who wish to discuss this are likewise in no position to do so.
 

whodini

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Brought up this thread to my father last night at dinner. He confirmed the story I mentioned earlier of the house with "knocks." He reminded me that he wasn't the only one to hear the knocks as it happened to his brother and sister-in-law, too. Also, while he never saw anything in the house, my aunt and uncle recall a few odd instances. A few times they both would see sparks dance across the floor even though there was no fire in the room and they didn't cause anything to burn. They also had a night (maybe more) where they would wake up and BOTH see an old woman floating above their bed at a 45-degree angle, she then would disappear moments later.

Another story he told was of his mother's best friend. This woman was married three times and swore that she was told of their deaths by themselves personally. The first husband died in a farming accident and came to her while she was in the kitchen. He told her she would find him in a certain part of the field but that she needed to pay attention because the papers she would need later were taped underneath the desk drawer. Her husband had never told her where he had hidden the papers before and without them she would have lost the farm. She said that with her next husband she was washing dishes when she noticed the top of her husband's hat bobbing across the window in front of her as if he was about to come inside but never did. He apparently died the day before but didn't find out until hours after "seeing him" walk by.
 

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