Ghosts?

Originally Posted by teddieriley

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Astonishing to throw in God with fairies and leprechauns, because they are pretty similar, right? Not to get into a whole discussion of religion or the metapysical, but what the hell do you think happens when someone dies? That they just vanish?

Yes, they are similar. All things for which there is zero scientific evidence.

Sorry, science doesn't explain everything. Who came up with science? Man did. So science is limited to whatever means man can come up with for measuring, quantifying or testing things. Not surprising man has yet to come up with some method for proving the existence of something greater than itself.

Well, I prefer reading the anecdotal stuff people post saying they've seen over watching filmed "evidence" or studying the attempts at technological measurement of ghosts, which generally seems like bad pseudoscience.

It's interesting: In the course of this thread nine posters have claimed to have seen apparitions of some sort or experienced poltergeist-like phenomena. (I have deliberately omitted "chills," "creepy feelings" and similar stuff that could be subjective.) I have cited seven cases where people I have known personally have claimed to have seen ghosts. (And I've got another good one coming up.) Other posters have cited some 13 cases where people known to them have experienced ghosts or poltergeists. (I eliminated one because it sounded too much like something out of the "Goosebumps" stories.)

In the face of so many first- and second-hand accounts, I am little surprised so many posters seem so adamant about the non-existence of ghosts. In the face of so much personal experience, I wonder why so many seem positively eager to rule out even the possibility of the paranormal. Perhaps something that shakes their preconceived views on the nature of matter and mind seems even more scary to them than to those of us who are more open-minded about such things.

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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It's interesting: In the course of this thread nine posters have claimed to have seen apparitions of some sort or experienced poltergeist-like phenomena. (I have deliberately omitted "chills," "creepy feelings" and similar stuff that could be subjective.) I have cited seven cases where people I have known personally have claimed to have seen ghosts. (And I've got another good one coming up.) Other posters have cited some 13 cases where people known to them have experienced ghosts or poltergeists. (I eliminated one because it sounded too much like something out of the "Goosebumps" stories.)

In the face of so many first- and second-hand accounts, I am little surprised so many posters seem so adamant about the non-existence of ghosts. In the face of so much personal experience, I wonder why so many seem positively eager to rule out even the possibility of the paranormal. Perhaps something that shakes their preconceived views on the nature of matter and mind seems even more scary to them than to those of us who are more open-minded about such things.

I'm not so surprised. These people are pretty much non-religious as well and they think their death will be like their pre-existence - a non-event. They didn't know they were alive before birth, so they won't know of any existence after they die. There is no belief in the soul and the energy associated with people which continues past physical existence. IMO, a short-sided view of life, but they are entitled to it. As I may have written in the past, you'll be proven wrong when I meet you on the other side one of these days. But introduce me by your SF name since I dont' know your real one.

Originally Posted by Coho

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funny how a lot of ghost stories involve the usual elements: unexplained sound, old building/house, some lady or child (rarely a good looking Ralph Lauren model).

I have the impression that ghosts of beautiful young women were more commonly encountered in the 19th century, perhaps because beautiful young women died with considerably greater frequency 150 or 200 years ago than they do today...if that doesn't sound too credulous. My American grandmother's sister died at the age of 21 over a century ago. She was one of the first women in America to own and drive her own car.

Originally Posted by teddieriley

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There is no belief in the soul and the energy associated with people which continues past physical existence.

I'm just curious, do you believe that humans only have souls? What about dogs, ants, amoebas, plants?

Originally Posted by converge

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I'm just curious, do you believe that humans only have souls? What about dogs, ants, amoebas, plants?

See here.

Originally Posted by converge

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I'm just curious, do you believe that humans only have souls? What about dogs, ants, amoebas, plants?

I would extend it to dogs, cats and such, although in Christian circles only humans have souls. I wouldn't know if giraffes or zebra's do as well, nor do I care. But I don't believe that ladybugs, rolly-pollys or spiders have souls. Especially flies, cockroaches or ants. They are definitely soul less.

Look, if you don't believe in a "God," the whole discussion about ghosts, spirits, having a soul, etc. would be as meaningless to you as would any point made to me by an aetheist that is grounded in the belief there is no such thing as God or an after life.

Let's just tell ghost stories. this thread is fun.

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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In the face of so much personal experience, I wonder why so many seem positively eager to rule out even the possibility of the paranormal.

What type of human observation does it make more sense to credit:

1) Personal experience, has been shown to be unreliable, incomplete, and colored by one's own perception/belief/experience, or
2) Observations that can be reviewed and reproduced by other human beings?

"Science" tries to help people understand/believe/credit/whatever the observations of other people by allowing them to duplicate their "experience". Why should mankind accept something as fact that is only measureable/available/knowable to a select few? I'd love to see a ghost; I have yet to see one. I can't discard other people's observations as crap, but until I can have the same experience should I not be skeptical?

Originally Posted by teddieriley

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Sorry, science doesn't explain everything. Who came up with science? Man did. So science is limited to whatever means man can come up with for measuring, quantifying or testing things.

True that man cannot measure everything. But the limit of what he can is forever expanding. I see no theoretical reason to believe in a hard limit of what human beings will be able to measure in the future.

Originally Posted by JLibourel

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It's interesting: In the course of this thread nine posters have claimed to have seen apparitions of some sort or experienced poltergeist-like phenomena. (I have deliberately omitted "chills," "creepy feelings" and similar stuff that could be subjective.) I have cited seven cases where people I have known personally have claimed to have seen ghosts. (And I've got another good one coming up.) Other posters have cited some 13 cases where people known to them have experienced ghosts or poltergeists. (I eliminated one because it sounded too much like something out of the "Goosebumps" stories.)

In the face of so many first- and second-hand accounts, I am little surprised so many posters seem so adamant about the non-existence of ghosts. In the face of so much personal experience, I wonder why so many seem positively eager to rule out even the possibility of the paranormal. Perhaps something that shakes their preconceived views on the nature of matter and mind seems even more scary to them than to those of us who are more open-minded about such things.

because it sounds smarter if you say you don`t believe in that kind of stuff.

Originally Posted by warlok1965

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What type of human observation does it make more sense to credit:

1) Personal experience, has been shown to be unreliable, incomplete, and colored by one's own perception/belief/experience, or
2) Observations that can be reviewed and reproduced by other human beings?

But experiences with ghosts are by no means merely "personal." Many people simultaneously or serially experience seeing a ghost or experience related, poltergeist-like phenomena. Some ghosts are actually quite famous, having been seen by many people over periods of many years. Particularly in the case of poltergeist phenomena, multiple persons will hear the noises or experience the objects' being moved. Doesn't this provide at least some sort of corroboration that these phenomena do have an external reality of some sort and are not mere figments of the solitary imagination on the order of dreams?

"Science" tries to help people understand/believe/credit/whatever the observations of other people by allowing them to duplicate their "experience". Why should mankind accept something as fact that is only measureable/available/knowable to a select few? I'd love to see a ghost; I have yet to see one. I can't discard other people's observations as crap, but until I can have the same experience should I not be skeptical?

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Experience of these phenomena hardly seems to be limited to a "select few." I personally have known at a minimum nine individuals, most of them otherwise seemingly sober, level-headed sorts, who claim to have seen "ghosts"...or something of that sort, anyway. Look at the number of other experiences related in this thread. Obviously this sort of thing isn't uncommon, and this is a clothing forum, dammit! If it were a forum devoted to the paranormal, you might expect a high number of responses, especially among individuals with a strong predisposition to believe in that sort of stuff.

Of course, you should "remain skeptical." I am a firm believer in applying Occam's razor wherever possible. Nonetheless, there does seem to be such a tremendous number of "ghostly" experiences throughout the world, throughout history in just about all cultures that I am aware of that I am strongly inclined to believe that there are inexplicable phenomena of this sort that cannot be accounted for by our present scientific knowledge. Whether they are, in fact, the actual shades of the departed, some kind of residual electromagnetic impulses, "place memories" or whatever, I wouldn't dogmatize about.

True that man cannot measure everything. But the limit of what he can is forever expanding. I see no theoretical reason to believe in a hard limit of what human beings will be able to measure in the future.

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Agreed. There was a serious attempt to study ghosts and similar psychic phenomena in the late 19th century but it foundered. Perhaps in the future such phenomena will be unravelled by science. All I am saying is I believe these phenomena do have some sort of existence. They are not mere delusions.

I like to consider myself a skeptic and a bullshit-detector at times but after hundreds of stories from people of all walks of life, even to the point of paranormal locations being sold like Disneyland where unexplainable events happen nearly on command, it's hard for me to completely negate the existence of something which I can't understand or explain. The power of group suggestion can be a powerful thing, for example, so I could comprehend one person seeing something, another seeing something similar, and before you know it the entire group has seen the same event. But I can't count the times I've heard of someone experiencing an event only to find out later that it was paranormal, had been experienced by others before, and that it was common, especially when I've had these stories told me to first hand from reliable sources.

OK everyone, I'm in Southern California - Los Angeles area. I am willing to drive, say anywhere within a 100 mile radius of LA in order to see a ghost. As an open minded skeptic I will put aside my doubts in order to see some cool paranormal ****; just tell me when and where.

Originally Posted by warlok1965

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OK everyone, I'm in Southern California - Los Angeles area. I am willing to drive, say anywhere within a 100 mile radius of LA in order to see a ghost. As an open minded skeptic I will put aside my doubts in order to see some cool paranormal ****; just tell me when and where.

Well, I think there are a number of books available on "Haunted LA" or "Haunted Hollywood." Why not acquire a couple of those and start checking out some of these sites? Please let us know what you find. It may be interesting.