Where's all the Savile Row stuff?

Originally Posted by YoungFogey

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That's not true. My prior posts on this thread have had nothing to with Kabbaz or you or FNB, for example. I do believe in calling people to task when I think they've gone too far -- that's true. And I don't think I've been wrong yet. Methinks you're being a BIT paranoid. "Here a troll, there a troll, everywhere a troll, troll"

Anyway, I am afraid I must go out.

Your first stop should be the "Inane Post of the Day" thread, the centerpiece of FNB.com. If you need help coming up with a topic, just ask! But I don't think you will.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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since it seems implausible that these shops of varying stylistic inclinations and competing commercial interests would conspire together to produce failure,

So if I understand you correctly: Because it's Savile Row, and it costs a lot....it can't be wrong?

I guess you must love D&G, Calvin Klein, Boss, etc.?

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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I gather that you do not like the taste or stylistic understanding of the person who bought these jackets and suits.

I'm not sure it's a question of "I like". This forum, and the many people on the forum, spend countless hours debating, nay, justifying, how one maker is superior to another, and how one tailor is superior to the next. We come for advice, hoping that those who have studied and paid countless amounts have a better understanding of what is suitable.

But then, those who have studied and paid countless amounts go overboard...they see monstrosities as in this thread, and sagely nod their heads in appreciation.

It's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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Would you give examples of what you consider extreme good taste? For example, photographs of yourself? If not yourself, is there any person here who posts photographs that does not have taste as extremely good as you (I assume that your good taste is extremely good), but good enough so that we can contrast with the stuff that you do not like?

I don't have some special reservoir of good taste! My good taste is the same as the good taste of 90% of this forum. We all know how to fit a suit, shoulders, waist, wrists. We all realize that lapel widths change, number of vents and buttons are a choice. Let's face it, this is not rocket science. It's gets a bit dicey matching a shirt, tie and shoes together to the suit, but confidence and knowledge of self generally steers us all right.

BUT, we come here to understand value! Should I actually pay $2000 for this suit, or are three $500 suits a better value? Should I pay $400 for this suit plus $100 for alterations -- in your experience would that be good value?

Generally, the people in these forums are pretty good at those questions.

But then a thread like this comes along. And rather than be honest about whether these suits are up to the same standards espoused in all the other threads, nobody will call the emperor naked. For example, the ticket pocket on one of the Anderson suits is about 2 inches too high -- why no comments on that?

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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And did you ever get that Prada leather coat?

It was a jacket actually, thanks for remembering.

Originally Posted by YoungFogey

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Sorry, Old Bean. I don't post on FNB. My beef with Kabbaz has nothing to do with you. Perhaps you'd like to issue me an apology?

Originally Posted by Manton

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Considering that all your posts here so far have been either to troll me, ***** about Kabbaz, or carry water for FNB ... no.

Originally Posted by YoungFogey

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That's not true. My prior posts on this thread have had nothing to with Kabbaz or you or FNB, for example. I do believe in calling people to task when I think they've gone too far -- that's true. And I don't think I've been wrong yet. Methinks you're being a BIT paranoid. "Here a troll, there a troll, everywhere a troll, troll"

Anyway, I am afraid I must go out.

Originally Posted by Manton

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Your first stop should be the "Inane Post of the Day" thread, the centerpiece of FNB.com. If you need help coming up with a topic, just ask! But I don't think you will.
Girls! Girls! You're both pretty. Anyway, Manton, I don't think having a disagreement with Alex automatically makes one a water-carrier for FNB. Just sayin'.

Originally Posted by RJman

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Girls! Girls! You're both pretty. Anyway, Manton, I don't think having a disagreement with Alex automatically makes one a water-carrier for FNB. Just sayin'.

I am not pretty.

I cited three reasons why I think he is an FNB troll. Carrying water for FNB was just that -- defending the Fat Man when His Rotundness got himself into stupid scrapes of his own making. It had nothing to with AK. That was a separate reason.

Though to make an unprovoked, irrelevant, non sequiter *****-slaps about AK is just about the surest sign of an FNB troll there is.

Originally Posted by Manton

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I am not pretty. I cited three reasons why I think he is an FNB troll. Carrying water for FNB was just that -- defending the Fat Man when His Rotundness got himself into stupid scrapes of his own making. It had nothing to with AK. That was a separate reason. Though to make an unprovoke, irrelevant, non sequiter ***** about AK is just about the surest sign of an FNB troll there is.
Maybe he is a non-troll impersonating a troll. Did you ever think of that?

@Manton: Well, without getting all mafoo on you, I think there's a continuum between needling you sometimes (as certain of us derive guilty pleasure in doing) and trolling (as certain others do shamelessly).

BTW, the strange rabbit-laden coat of arms thing that Leffot has adopted as its insignia made me think of FNB. Sigh.

Originally Posted by RJman

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@Manton: Well, without getting all mafoo on you, I think there's a continuum between needling you sometimes (as certain of us derive guilty pleasure in doing) and trolling (as certain others do shamelessly).

And I mostly can tell the difference. Though I of course am not infallible. But in this case, I think I pegged YF correctly.

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

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So if I understand you correctly: Because it's Savile Row, and it costs a lot....it can't be wrong?
I think you're missing the point, and I don't think you should try and put words into Vox's mouth. SR garments are essentially commissioned pieces, and hence, reflect the style and desires of the client. What he seems to be saying is that you may not like RSS's stylistic choices, and since the only pictures posted are of his pieces, it does not necessarily reflect the diverse possibilities of SR tailoring. You can't go from a single example to sweeping condemnation like "SR is doomed!!!" In statistical terms, you have only one data point.

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

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I'm not sure it's a question of "I like". This forum, and the many people on the forum, spend countless hours debating, nay, justifying, how one maker is superior to another, and how one tailor is superior to the next. We come for advice, hoping that those who have studied and paid countless amounts have a better understanding of what is suitable. But then, those who have studied and paid countless amounts go overboard...they see monstrosities as in this thread, and sagely nod their heads in appreciation. It's ridiculous.
But it is fundamentally a question of "like." Clothing is at it's root about aesthetics, within certain societal conventions. Because of RSS's personality and sense of style, he chose to have those pieces made in the way they are. Because they are bespoke and not RTW, it really is a very personal decision about what is "right" for you. I, for one, don't think any of his pieces are monstrous. Those words might be better used to describe, say the last Prada, Oswald Boateng or Thom Browne runway show, but there is nothing that strange about RSS's jackets. His choice of patterned material reflects a kind country gentleman aesthetic, which may seem a little idiosyncratic to you, but does not necessarily make him "ridiculous," by any stretch of the imagination. Also, I think with bespoke, it isn't necessarily about who is "superior" to another, as the different tailors have their own characteristics and defining features. It would be like trying to argue that one artist is superior to another; there is no answer to that, and it relies almost entirely on your personal aesthetic judgements.

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

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I don't have some special reservoir of good taste! My good taste is the same as the good taste of 90% of this forum. We all know how to fit a suit, shoulders, waist, wrists. We all realize that lapel widths change, number of vents and buttons are a choice. Let's face it, this is not rocket science. It's gets a bit dicey matching a shirt, tie and shoes together to the suit, but confidence and knowledge of self generally steers us all right.
I think you're avoiding his question. Just post one photo of a style or look that you think would be in "good taste." It needn't necessarily be a photo of yourself.

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

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BUT, we come here to understand value! Should I actually pay $2000 for this suit, or are three $500 suits a better value? Should I pay $400 for this suit plus $100 for alterations -- in your experience would that be good value?
I'm not sure if the same cost-benefit analysis applies for bespoke clothing, since the relationship between client and tailor is different from a normal commercial transaction.

I am going to take some time with this (probably naively), because you raise points that I find are valid but also points that are not.

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

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So if I understand you correctly: Because it's Savile Row, and it costs a lot....it can't be wrong?

No, but perhaps I was unclear. I meant that RSS's photographs were interesting because usually when someone posts bespoke product, it is from one maker...sometimes, two. RSS has direct experience with more, and I think it unlikely they can be all "bad" in the same way. But it could be that you do not like RSS's personal style or taste--since that is the common thread among these different makers--and that's fair game, especially if played with discretion and kindness.

I think that RSS explained earlier in this thread that his father was more conservative, and that when RSS set out in a more artistic field, he wanted to commision things that were less conservative. Within the SR framework, this will mean different cuts and fabric, either of which might look odd to the RTW eye.

I will say that it would take more than the photographs in this thread to make me believe that Dege, Huntsman, Richard Anderson, and Anderson & Sheppard all uniformly delivered garments that did not fit RSS when they were commissioned. I suspect some of these items have had long lifespans, and perhaps it might be the case a refitting or two would have been beneficial after a few years. Others, like that A&S jacket, I think, are made from material that is inevitably going to bag...whether one finds that charming or annoying is a legitimate difference of opinion.

Quite a few of the photographs of bespoke clothes on SF are posted here as special events because someone has just gotten something or is excited at entering the "world of bespoke" clothing. RSS, on the other hand, is sharing unassuming photographs over a long period of buying and wearing (and maybe, wearing out, which is as it should be) a variety of fine bespoke product.

If I look at Mariano Rubinacci's own coats, and based on what I have read, much of his wardrobe is well worn, his coats have a natural, lived in look. This might seem sloppy to you, but I think it is mature and noble.

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

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I guess you must love D&G, Calvin Klein, Boss, etc.?

I have a few trousers from D&G and Calvin Klein, and have nothing from Boss. I don't love the former, but I like what I have.

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

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I'm not sure it's a question of "I like". This forum, and the many people on the forum, spend countless hours debating, nay, justifying, how one maker is superior to another, and how one tailor is superior to the next. We come for advice, hoping that those who have studied and paid countless amounts have a better understanding of what is suitable.

But then, those who have studied and paid countless amounts go overboard...they see monstrosities as in this thread, and sagely nod their heads in appreciation.

It's ridiculous.

Well, I think that it would be silly to argue that even a minute spent on an internet forum is, uhm, productive. Better to go out and breath fresh air.

Did everyone like RSS's stuff? I don't think that is true.

What I observe is that generally speaking, the people with the means and will to build a bespoke wardrobe will often be lukewarm about the bespoke wardrobes of others unless that wardrobe comes from the same maker. Some are outright hostile, although not so much on SF.

There are not only the stylistic differences of each producer, but of each client, and the result is a wide variety of effects, many of them highly individual. Perhaps this makes it harder to be elegant in an age where conformity of taste is no longer bounded by tradition, class or geography.

Frankly, it is probably easier to be elegant in RTW if you possess standard proportions and are educated about clothes. But only up to a point. Beyond that point, one will be messing with the success or failure of a bespoke wardrobe.

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

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I don't have some special reservoir of good taste! My good taste is the same as the good taste of 90% of this forum. We all know how to fit a suit, shoulders, waist, wrists. We all realize that lapel widths change, number of vents and buttons are a choice. Let's face it, this is not rocket science. It's gets a bit dicey matching a shirt, tie and shoes together to the suit, but confidence and knowledge of self generally steers us all right.

BUT, we come here to understand value! Should I actually pay $2000 for this suit, or are three $500 suits a better value? Should I pay $400 for this suit plus $100 for alterations -- in your experience would that be good value?

Generally, the people in these forums are pretty good at those questions.

I agree, those are the subjects that work best here.

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

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But then a thread like this comes along. And rather than be honest about whether these suits are up to the same standards espoused in all the other threads, nobody will call the emperor naked. For example, the ticket pocket on one of the Anderson suits is about 2 inches too high -- why no comments on that?

Since your opinion is so strong, I can't think of a better person to make them. So do, and build on the examples like this one.

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

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It was a jacket actually, thanks for remembering.

I like Prada. Well, some...

- B

Well, just to contribute more substantively to this thread, here are photographs of a sample of Savile Row (ish) bespoke garments from my guy, Edwin DeBoise, owner of Steed, located in Cumbria, that I have posted in WAYWRN or in other threads. Edwin cuts in the Scholte draped style, with his own twists on the traditional Anderson & Sheppard cut.

The main stylistic points:

- There are no sidebodies to the jackets

- Three of the finished jackets have no front darts

- No padding is used in the shoulders, just a tiny bit of wadding

- Only a light canvass is used in the chest, much lighter than would be typical in SR houses other than A&S

- Trousers are made to be braced

A. Some finished products:





B. Some products in the works:



- B

Once we've finished calling out all the SR stuff we don't like, we better get started on WAYWT. So much to be done!

Excellent posts Vox and academe. To boil it down, questions of fit, cut and style are highly individualized when clothes are made to a person's specifications. But it's all about what the customer likes and what his tailor thinks will be his interpretation of what the customer is asking for. It's not about what you like yeah ok, or what anyone else likes. It's about what the customer likes. there are any number of posters here that get stuff made that I don't like and any number of posters that don't like what I get made. Objectively, are the garments crap? No. It's generally a matter of aesthetics, which is by its nature subjective.

And yes even SR houses can turn out an objectively cruddy garment, but I didn't see any of such posted.

Originally Posted by Manton

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And I mostly can tell the difference. Though I of course am not infallible. But in this case, I think I pegged YF correctly.

You know, you complain about how personal these attacks on you can get. I'm beginning to understand why -- because you MAKE them personal. I've been a member here for about four years, but that's not good enough for you for my bona fides, apparently. No. Because I disagree with you on occasion or correct something you say, you call me a "troll".

I had about 1000 posts over at AAAC before I quit. There were many reasons I walked away there, but chief among them was how heavy-handed, partial and nasty a certain moderator was. But to criticise him makes me a "troll" apparently.

I've followed these boards for the last four years, and it's finally struck me what you are. You, sir, are a BULLY. Anyone who disagrees with you is "wrong". Unless they actually know what they're talking about, that is. Then, they are a "troll".

You've been pretty successful in driving anyone who doesn't slavishly accept every word you say from both AAAC and LondonLounge. You're king of your domain there, no doubt. People write in asking, "Manton, what should I order from Huntsman next time round". And you love it. You do! You lap it up. But the interesting thing is that those sites are, for all intents and purposes, dying. AAAC has become an echo chamber of middlebrow trad and LondonLounge is a well-mannered and well-informed mausoleum.

So you get bored. And like a BULLY, you look for new places to shake down. New places that must submit to the Manton diktat and infallibility. So anyone on SF who disagrees with you or challenges you must be destroyed. Their credibility must be called into question. They must be made suspect. So you plant the idea that they're "trolls" (because, after all, anyone who disagrees with you can only be a troll, right?). Your problem, though, is that once you successfully marginalise anyone on this site who questions your infallibility, and you've turned SF into yet another mausoleum, where will you go then?

You know, I agree with about 85% of the points that you've made on AAAC and SF over the years. I think you have a very good grasp of what informs gentlemanly style and have developed a thoughtful philosophy about it. But if I disagree with you in the slightest or question the manner in which you deal with someone, I am, apparently, a "troll".

A gentleman would not have made his accusations on the message board. A gentleman would have PM'd me and challenged my motivations privately. But, despite your clothes, your style, and your sense of superiority, your are no gentleman. You, sir, are nothing but a BULLY.

voxsatoria, the blue/red windowpane (what weight is it? whose cloth is it?) suit with the single button jacket is smooth. The jacket and trousers are a good fit and great look but I would prefer the trousers to be longer by a shade however (this may be me, and only me).

Presenting the whole, though, is frought with emotion for many, and not just for the OP. Amateur photographs, particularly self-portrature, almost always imbalances a look. Moreover, it is diffcult to convey how the whole looks and works in motion, and much easier to present how an object within that look (such as a shoe) appears.

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This is something I think very few people on these forums understand. Until one has actually spent a fair amount of time photographing his self for WAYWT then he cannot really understand how small changes in camera position and angle, lighting and pose can make HUGE differences in the final picture. Probably my most frequent response when looking at the WAYWT threads is a dramatic eye roll at the inane comments of those who can't recognize what is lense distortion and what is bad fit.

Scott's DB pics are a good example I think. The combination of angle and pose makes it nearly impossible to tell what they actually look like in person. I've actually met Scott and can say that the coats I've seen him in fit beautifully. I also happen to like his loud tweeds.

And yeah_ok, you're entitled to your opinion but how about expressing it in a civil manner.