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Zegna napoli couture xxx suits

MilanoStyle

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Compared to Attolini, Oxxxford, Kition, Brioni, and Borrelli how does Zegna Napoli xxx suits stack up in terms of construction and quality. Is Zegna Napoli 90%+ hand made?

Thanks.
 

naturlaut

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Of all the makers you listed, Brioni features the least hand work, and craftsmanship of another category entirely.  I wouldn't rate or put Brioni with these Neapolitans or Oxxford.  

Attolini and Borrelli both feature an extensive amount of handwork --- I wouldn't say 90% (shoulder seams, side seams, pant seams, etc., are still done by machine).  Zegna Napoli Couture is excellent, and in my experience (both with off-the-rack and MTM) on par with the others in terms of handwork.  Styling and fit is another matter, and I think Attolini is still a winner in that aspect.

If you are looking merely at handwork, some of the lesser known tailors in Italy are amazing.  I recently had a suit made in Rome (by the tailor of the 2002 Golden Scissors award)where I can safely say that suit is 95% handmade.  I am still waiting for it and I will take some pictures along with a report later.

I would, however, advise against the new Zegna Napoli Couture shirts. Actually, the Napoli Couture label is no longer in used; replaced by a simply Zegna Couture label. The suits are still made at the same facility, while the shirts are now made in a workshop in Switzerland. My recent MTM shirt has not been too favourable.
 

MilanoStyle

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Thanks naturlaut,

I am intrigued by "I wouldn't rate or put Brioni with these Neapolitans or Oxxford. "

why is this?
 

naturlaut

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These are just strictly my own opinions and observations: Brioni in recent years have or on the road to become another LVMH-like company.  Honestly, how many here thinks Burini makes a shirt worth the listed $350+ to $400+? --- on par with a Borrelli?  For suitings, the styling is great, but craftsmanship is again not proportionate with its price and its prestige.  Therefore, if styling is the only consideration when buying Brioni, then I think we have to brand Brioni as a "designer brand" instead of a maker.  It may cause panic to some if you tell them how little handwork is actually put into a Brioni jacket, and how it is marketed otherwise.  (Ever wonder why some makers are bold enough to say "Hand Made in Italy" whereas Brioni puts "Hand Tailored in Italy?)  I am not complaining about how much or little handwork is required, but the price and marketing should not be deceiving.  Most of our first encounters in the sartorially-refined is Brioni, due to its prestige (at least for me and a good deal of people I know).  I think the name Brioni is over blown in recent years due to its association with various celebrities.  

On the other hand, Attolini and the Neapolitans have not changed much their operations in terms of production.  You will not find greater care put into a ready-made garment by any others.  It's like buying Norvegese shoes; you have to give it to them for those pain-staking stitches.

Back to Brioni: over similar styles I have many other choices, namely Castangia/Battistoni (from Sardinia), which has a much better price point.  Also, has anyone seen the Brioni shoes?  I can't find other words for 'ugly' in my vocabulary.  They used to contract Lattanzi, (and for a short while Artioli) but I have no idea who they are using now.  They don't seem to care either.  Walking into a Brioni store is beginning to feel like wandering into Gucci or Prada.

Just my humble opinion.
 

A Harris

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I'm most curious as to what exactly the differences are, that make an Attolini more handmade than a Brioni? Externally, they have the same handpicked lapels, handstitched buttoholes etc. The differences are obviously internal, so what specifically are they?? I'm not about to tear apart my Attolini jacket to find out :)

Big fan of Castangia here as well. Great suit, especially for the price.

More Zegna news - I saw a beautifully cut jacket at Neiman Marcus in San Francisco a couple of weeks ago. Very soft construction, the shoulder is more Neopolitan than most of the Kiton here in the US. Loved it, and it's from the regular Zegna line. Apparently a special order just for Neimans. I suggest that anyone in the Bay Area check it out.
 

MilanoStyle

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When I saw Attolini in store, I was dazzled by its fabric, cut, detailing , and .. PRICE TAG.

But here is what I noticed. I could not find any noticeble difference inside of jacket between Brioni and Attolini (they look equally well made and stiched).

But I noticed an external detailing right away on Attolini that is not found on Brioni (looked 4 so far and own 1). I do not know if this is common to all Attolini, but the ones I looked had hand stiched detailing on middle back seam, chest dart, side seams, etc .. So far, the Brioni's I have looked do not have those detailing.

You cannot see those hand stiching detailing from a distance, but when you see it from up close, it looks very tasteful.
 

T4phage

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All quotes originally posted by naturlaut:
...Of all the makers you listed, Brioni features the least hand work, and craftsmanship of another category entirely. I wouldn't rate or put Brioni with these Neapolitans or Oxxford.
Being a Brioni and Kiton fan, I would agree with naturlaut in one sense, that Brioni has a bit less handwork than say Kiton or Oxxford. I disagree on his opinion that the workmanship is of another level. I would prefer to think of it as being more of a certain "school" of tailoring, i.e Roman v.s the more Neapolitan traditions of Attolini/Kiton. Are the stitchings better/worse? No. I've also read that Brioni has a handstitched chest whilst Kiton is machine.
...Brioni in recent years have or on the road to become another LVMH-like company. Honestly, how many here thinks Burini makes a shirt worth the listed $350+ to $400+? --- on par with a Borrelli
Agree 10000%. This saddens me a bit with Brioni.
... For suitings, the styling is great, but craftsmanship is again not proportionate with its price and its prestige. Therefore, if styling is the only consideration when buying Brioni, then I think we have to brand Brioni as a "designer brand" instead of a maker.
Here I disagree. The type of work is different due to the different sensibilites of the suits, the work done inside is at least as good. Some of the Kitons sold in the U.S have a very tepid version of the "neapolitan" shoulder compared to the Italian types. I believe there would be less work involved in the production of those.
... Ever wonder why some makers are bold enough to say "Hand Made in Italy" whereas Brioni puts "Hand Tailored in Italy?)
But the "Hand made in Italy" appears in so many goods there, the closest some of those got to being "hand made" is the pressing. I don't think that differentiation is of much value.
 

naturlaut

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Being a Brioni and Kiton fan, I would agree with naturlaut in one sense, that Brioni has a bit less handwork than say Kiton or Oxxford. Â I disagree on his opinion that the workmanship is of another level. Â I would prefer to think of it as being more of a certain "school" of tailoring, i.e Roman v.s the more Neapolitan traditions of Attolini/Kiton. Â Are the stitchings better/worse? Â No. Â I've also read that Brioni has a handstitched chest whilst Kiton is machine.
I don't mean better/worse; yes, I mean completely different school. Â Fit and styling aside, even the handworks are different. Â Comparing stitching on a Brioni light-weight fabric and one from a Neapolitan, I see tighter pick stitching in Brioni, causing the lapel to have a bit of (only a bit of) wave and unevenness; whereas the Neapolitans stitch them a little less tightly, and the outcome (from a Kiton/Attolini/Zegna NC) is a smoother lapel. Â Having seen some unfinished Kitons, I think both Kiton (or Attolini) and Brioni use some kind of handwork on the chest. Â
Agree 10000%. Â This saddens me a bit with Brioni.
I just think that Brioni has become somewhat of a brand in recent years. Â A few months ago, I met a "tailor" from Brioni, who was doing trunk show in Hong Kong. Â He was a recent graduate from the Brioni school, and he takes MTM orders around the work (in Hong Kong and some oil-rich middle-eastern countries). Â The whole measurement process was sloppy to say the least, but the customers show no less satisfaction --- because it is Brioni. Â However, if one were going for the Neapolitans (Kiton/Borrelli/Attolini/even Zegna NC) he must be pretty serious about his suits. Â A Brioni MTM suit starts from $5000. Â So is a Kiton. Â I forgot how much Vacca charges for the Attolini.
Here I disagree. Â The type of work is different due to the different sensibilites of the suits, the work done inside is at least as good. Â Some of the Kitons sold in the U.S have a very tepid version of the "neapolitan" shoulder compared to the Italian types. Â I believe there would be less work involved in the production of those.
I am not commenting the goodness (or badness) of the handwork; but since you mentioned it --- strictly my opinion, I think the Brioni buttonholes are not always so consistent: some are nice, sometimes sloppy. Â On the other hand, I am always happy with the Kiton/Attolini/Zegna NC buttonholes. Â I have only seen Kiton at Bergdorf, and they all seem pretty consistent, though I know (from this board) that these makers are not always so when producing for the US market. Â On a parrallel note, I have seen some Brioni for the German market that do not look Brioni at all. MilanoStyle: you are exactly right. Â Brioni does not stitching on all those seams you mentioned. Â If I am not wrong, most of the makers don't do the shoulder seams by hand too, as they are more difficult to do. Â I can't see the stitches in my Attolini due to the colour, could you check yours? Â Also, Brioni does the collar differently from the Neapolitans.
 

MilanoStyle

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I have been told by tailors that Brioni does hand stich shoulders. But unless I see Brioni suit makin in process, I do not know who to believe.

naturlaut, the Attolini I tried on was silver gray and had navy shine to it .. it was total party suit. stunning suit. The detail stiches were done in dark blue thick thread stichings. I was like .. oooohhh ... However, the pants were too tapered for my taste .. are ur Attolini suit pants are tapered (I suppose, tapered pants are neapolian style?)
 

TheWorldsFinest

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Wow. I am impressed at the responses on this one.  You guys are hardcore.  In my opinion the handwork is as follows in so far as the Italian brands:

Attolini, Kiton, Borrelli, Stefano Ricci   - Most
Brioni                                           - Middle
Isaia, Belvest, Zegna Couture, Luciano Barbera - Least

I have not bought and sold a lot of the the "high end" Zegna.  But, they are definately taking more out of the line these days.  As mentioned before the shirts no longer are hand stitched.  I heard Lorenzini is doing the production.
 

MilanoStyle

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Nice to see you here worldfinest. Looking fordward to see your insight on menswear and your product .. especially Attolini and Borrelli as I'll be customer once my $$$ saved.
 

Mike C.

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When I think of brands like Zegna NC, Brioni, Attolini, Kiton, etc... ranking them in terms of quality is pointless (except for the crazy people like us on the forum).

Each is so high is quality that it wouldn't make any sense to buy a Kiton just because it has a tad bit more handi-work than Brioni. When dealing with suits of this tier, the styling and personal taste is what really distinguishes each.

Like if you're buying a Brioni, it's insane to think you're getting a suit of "lesser quality."
 

johnnynorman3

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I still am not impressed with Zegna NC at the price point its at. IMO, Oxxford, Borrelli, and Kiton use better fabrics (I think Zegna fabrics are overrated, but that's just my only slightly informed opinion), and Isaia, Borrelli, Attolini, and Brioni have better styling. Zegna NC still seems too boxy to me -- at least the ones I've seen. Even at discount NC still is marked at 1700.
 

imageWIS

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I still am not impressed with Zegna NC at the price point its at. IMO, Oxxford, Borrelli, and Kiton use better fabrics (I think Zegna fabrics are overrated, but that's just my only slightly informed opinion), and Isaia, Borrelli, Attolini, and Brioni have better styling. Zegna NC still seems too boxy to me -- at least the ones I've seen. Even at discount NC still is marked at 1700.
That might be true regarding newer Zegna Napoli Couture items, but I have 3 suits from around the first / second season collections, and the suits are anything but boxy; they are designed in the Neapolitan style in every sense of the word. Plus, the fabrics used in all the NC items (sartorial) are at least 15milmil15, which are the equivalent of super 150's. Regardless if the lesser Zegna fabrics are overrated, 15milmil15 is a nice collection of fabrics, and the whose merits should not be over or underrated.

Jon.
 

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