Yohji, Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love The Looser Fit (Yohji Yamamoto Thread)

[Ivwri]

I almost picked up a copy last month from amazon.co.uk then got distracted with work. By the time I remembered to get some money on my debit card, it was sold out . Now I have to pretend I can't see the exorbitantly priced copy on amazon.com. Sigh. Definitely want a copy though. The photography is truly sublime and I find it even doubly interesting since I am usually drawn to photos of architecture and landscapes etc. rather than portraits. So the fact that August Sander's work is striking a chord with me is very cool.

robinsongreen68 that picture is indeed very cool! So many little things that one can keep on noticing every time you come back to look at a particular image of his.

 

[the shah]

Bizarre question but how is the sizing on the womens stuff ? Still 2,3,4 etc ? And would the jackets be right-over-left or left-over-right ? Well I do have a good reason to ask but anyway...thanks in advance for heads up

 

[NovemberFire]

+1. That pic is seriously making me consider getting a pair from LN-CC.
I don't know myself, but mine is a 4 so I guess it is possible a 3 was not made. It may also depend on where you picked it up from since that particular store may not have received any in a size 3 at all. It makes sense in a way I guess, a size 3 would not have a place to fit on that continuum if the 2 hangs on you the way it does on the model, considering we are pretty close in height. It is odd since it seems last season the sizing was 1, 3 and 5 for such items...

Yeah I picked it up from Atelier. And Curtis also mentioned with Yohji, when buyers are at the showroom, they can actually choose different proportions of any given size if they wish. Anyway, quality, fabric, seams, button spacing and everything is incredible. By the way does anyone by chance have the S/S 2012 item codes w/pics by chance? Thought I read something in a previous post. Any help is appreciated.

 

[Fuuma]



Haha! I thought as much, but then I wasn't sure. She looks very good and I guess she took the whole idea of Yohji saying he wanted to put women in mens clothing and ran with it.
EDIT: Could the pants from the pic be AW09? Pretty sure I saw some pretty baggy cropped pants in that collection as well.
Also,
Do it Unc!

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

HENSHIN!

I have one of those pink sweaters w. cartoon, they're pretyt fun to wear as only one size was made so on me they're more like a dress.

 

[snowmanxl]

what boots mr wire?

 

[syed]

Ivwri: Have you checked out Face of Our Time? It was Sander's first published work (costs normal paperback price) and it has 60 portraits of various professions. In Notebook Wim Wenders talks about the 'truth' of the garment, which rather nicely mirrors Döblin's essay at the start of the book of how the portraits by Sander allow you to see the 'truth' of the person. Plus Yohji talks about people in the past being part of their outfits, of how their professions and lives showed in what they wore, so the fact that the book has the various professions really allows you to see that. I find it quite magical to look at all of these people so obviously dressed and looking like what they are described as being - whether locksmith, three generations of farmers (the difference between the grandfather and the young father is quite remarkable), or redundant seaman.

With regards to the link between Germany and Japan, Wenders picks up on it saying that both he and Yohji are from the post-War generation (from countries which were both defeated, and both their fathers fought as soldiers) so they grew up sharing that link in terms of upbringing and values. The fact that Yohji talks of his clothing being armour from outside eyes is perhaps rather touching in that sense. I think the generational gap between him and Hanae Mori shows through the work, especially when you place his work alongside Rei's as well, both are more bleak yet at the same time have a vein of humour. Mori's work is very traditional and decorative, fully steeped in Japanese-ness (for want of a better phrase), however Yohji and Rei have always eschewed that link regardless of how much it is present to outside eyes.

I also think it is interesting that Yohji runway shows are always considered by how the outfits look from the front, despite the fact that he says everything starts from the back. I suppose we immediately look to the front because of the face, but the fact that he places such great emphasis on the back makes me think about that. He says that because his mother had to raise him herself, being a war widow, she was always working and as such his memories of her are always of her back - leaving him. So now he says he always pictures women from their backs, leaving him and he tries to call them back (I think he writes about that in My Dear Bomb too). It is interesting to consider the symbolism of it though, whether it is conscious or not, of a strong back making a strong woman (plus the addition of the Japanese tradition of the back of a woman's neck being a point of beauty).

In case this has not already been posted:

[VIDEO][/VIDEO]

 

[Ivwri]

Hi Syed,

Glad to see you posting on here.

Yeah the WW2 link between Germany and Japan is definitely a strong one and I guess that sort of experience would make close bedfellows. Was there anything else that encouraged active cultural exchange though? With regards to Yohji in particular, looking at it a bit more, I guess it makes sense that that aura of a country and its people recovering from losing a war (or two actually, including the Great war) would strike a major chord with him. There is a certain kind of melancholy, resilience and humour that can only come from this sort of landscape I think...

It is interesting seeing people like Yohji Yamamoto and Rei Kawakubo as being among the first generation of Japanese creatives showing a "global Japanese outlook", getting their inspiration from across their borders and not directly identifying with what could be considered as the "great Japanese empire", eschewing nostalgia for a romanticised past of their own nation and finding inspiration elsewhere. Most of the current crop of Japanese designers now seem to be re-importing their innovations and designs via Europe and in particular via the Belgian designers so I guess that mentality stayed the same as generations passed in Japan. It's just a shame that in a roundabout manner, they are still taking in Japanese DNA and may not have enough that's new.

I was discussing this with asobu a while back about how I cannot see which Japanese designer will be able to carry the torch of either Yohji or Rei once they pass on. Like Yohji said "to be modern is to tear the soul out of everything" and it really feels to me that most of the current crop of Japanese designers are more caught up with being cool and edgy. This can result in some truly beautiful clothes, but they seem to lack that "soul". To me at least at any rate.

I am actually picking up Face of our Time from Amazon as we speak so looking forward to browsing through that. Only ever seen Sander's work online and of course via Notebook on Cities and Clothes.

I really enjoy the fact that Yohji is always paradoxical - he says he hates fashion, but works within it, he says he starts clothes from the back yet shows from the front, he hates retrospectives yet he constantly references his past work (even if only subconsciously), he says he is not a Japanese designer and yet uses explicitly Japanese influences in his work - makes me feel that for all the accolades he has been given and the analysis his work gets at the end of the day he is only human and possibly doesn't take himself seriously .

edit - oh yeah and the vid has been posted earlier in the thread, but it's all good

 

[Parker]



at the end of the day he is only human and possibly doesn't take himself seriously.

 

[snowmanxl]

looking at yohji makes me want to be an older japanese chap, with swag

 

[asobu]

^^very poignant, parker. I think that whole collection really showed what he wanted to do for himself, from himself -- the man, artist, creator.


thanks for coming over here to post syed, I like your contributions over at SZ too so I hope you stick around.


edit: his work might or might not start from the back, i think he places a lot of emphasis on it and the curves from the nape of the neck down the back, but I wouldn't assume that he necessarily wants his clothes to presented back first. Didn't he often say that a strong back makes the front, or something in that vein? Either way (unfortunately?), fashion is fed to us from the front, for Yohji as well.


edit2:

I really enjoy the fact that Yohji is always paradoxical - he says he hates fashion, but works within it, he says he starts clothes from the back yet shows from the front, he hates retrospectives yet he constantly references his past work (even if only subconsciously), he says he is not a Japanese designer and yet uses explicitly Japanese influences in his work - makes me feel that for all the accolades he has been given and the analysis his work gets at the end of the day he is only human and possibly doesn't take himself seriously .

and this is key, imo.

 

[asobu]

Also, is it wrong of me to think that this is kind of the greatest thing ever?

what boots mr wire?

90% sure it's YY x Dr Marten collabs from AW07

 

[wireartists]



             Yeah I picked it up from Atelier. And Curtis also mentioned with Yohji, when buyers are at the showroom, hey can actually choose different proportions of any given size if they wish. Anyway, quality, fabric, seams, button spacing and everything is incredible. By the way does anyone by chance have the S/S 2012 item codes w/pics by chance? Thought I read something in a previous post. Any help is appreciated.

some more information about this would be great, I do find that I like better the stuff I buy from japan than europe...

the boots on that pic are docs x yyph chelsea boots with side zips from aw07 (whole look is aw07)

 

[Ivwri]

Been meaning to post this -

​

Also that picture is really cute asobu.

 

[syed]



Hi Syed,
Glad to see you posting on here.

Thank you

Most of the current crop of Japanese designers now seem to be re-importing their innovations and designs via Europe and in particular via the Belgian designers so I guess that mentality stayed the same as generations passed in Japan. It's just a shame that in a roundabout manner, they are still taking in Japanese DNA and may not have enough that's new.
I was discussing this with asobu a while back about how I cannot see which Japanese designer will be able to carry the torch of either Yohji or Rei once they pass on. Like Yohji said "to be modern is to tear the soul out of everything" and it really feels to me that most of the current crop of Japanese designers are more caught up with being cool and edgy. This can result in some truly beautiful clothes, but they seem to lack that "soul". To me at least at any rate.

I have been thinking about this too and find myself wondering whether there is anybody. There certainly are designers who started at Comme/Yohji - Chitose Abe worked at Comme for ten years before starting sacai (I believe Rei offered her a line at Comme but she said she wanted her own label), and matohu is run by husband and wife, he worked at Comme she worked at Yohji. Both are nice enough, but they are determinedly different to Rei or Yohji in approach - Abe wants to make wearable everyday clothes based on 'Tokyo elegance', and Sekiguchi and Horihata base their designs on an interpretation of traditional Japanese beauty. I think they both make beautiful clothes, but sometimes I wonder whether it is too beautiful and that is why it does not move me as much. With Yohji and Comme I think the clothes challenge you and make you think - it is never straightforward, even though when you wear it it looks and feels easy and natural. It might be clichéd to talk of the cerebral side of Yohji and Rei's work, but I think it does make a difference. I like clothes that raise questions without having to look entirely wacky and Gaultier-ish.

With most Japanese designers today they do not seem to approach fashion with the same sense of questioning that Yohji and Rei did. You have those steeped in their backgrounds in vintage (N.Hoolywood), the process of the fashion dj and streetstyle (Takahashi), and repros from another era or country (denim companies, workwear companies, even someone like Nakamura). They seem to make clothes for the street and for certain fashion subcultures, charging high fashion prices without using the language of high fashion. Yohji questioned fashion from the inside - he was fully literate in fashion and made the effort to go to Paris and show, as did Rei. Yohji references the history of fashion, whilst the newer designers simply reference history. Yohji can 'quote' Balenciaga or Chanel or Vionnet in his dresses and his work, and by doing so, even if the wearer is unaware of these references, he places his work within (and without) the history of fashion. By referencing the past but doing so in a way that is not a simple transplant, but rather a translation into his own design language, as well as shying away from trends, his work is placed outside the cycle of fashion and thus outside of the traditional fashion system. It seems as if designers are happy to make reproductions or clothes for the street without seeking to change anything - as you say they are caught up with being cool and edgy. Yohji and Rei have always rebelled and have done so from the inside, conscious of the language and history of fashion, so their statements are all the more powerful.

I really enjoy the fact that Yohji is always paradoxical - he says he hates fashion, but works within it, he says he starts clothes from the back yet shows from the front, he hates retrospectives yet he constantly references his past work (even if only subconsciously), he says he is not a Japanese designer and yet uses explicitly Japanese influences in his work - makes me feel that for all the accolades he has been given and the analysis his work gets at the end of the day he is only human and possibly doesn't take himself seriously .

I love fashion and dress - what we wear, why we wear it, how we wear it, when we wear it, how the fashion system works, how the cycle of fashion works, the design side, the social side, the historical side, the cultural side, the material side, the production side, etc. etc. However I often find myself agreeing with Yohji - I hate fashion. Not the clothes, not fashion design, but rather what the fashion system has become. There is too much noise. "Faster, faster, cheaper, cheaper - people have started to waste fashion". I hate how money has become so much more important than design, where designers have to bend to the whims of an artificial market, keeping the fashion industry happy, or risk going out of business or having to make money designing for a trashy fast fashion house. Like Yohji says "When people are really tired of everything, then come, I can satisfy you." There are too many designers, too many clothes, too many trends, too much money, all clamouring to be heard. I don't want clothes that scream and shout, I want clothes that whisper gently in my ear. I think Yohji provides that.

Fashion seems to be fully in control of the businesses and what Kawamura called the gate-keepers (the fashion mags, press, etc.,). We are told what to like rather than being left to decide for ourselves. I can pick up a magazine or browse a fashion website and all I see are - "Do's and Don'ts for this season", "The Top 10 [x]'s you need this season!", "The hot trends this season". One of my favourite Barthes quotes come to mind "Mass culture is a machine for showing desire: here is what must interest you, it says, as if it guessed that men are incapable of finding what to desire by themselves."

I think he is a worldly (for want of a better phrase) designer. He may have roots in Japan, but his work combines a multitude of ethnic/cultural/geographic/social references. I think it is more to the point that being from Japan he will inherently have that frame of reference and knowledge to use. But it is the same with his use of fashion history - whether making an homage to Vionnet or referencing Madame Gres. I like that Yohji can use such an array of knowledge in his own way. So many designers today seem entirely ignorant of fashion history - not saying they must know it in order to be good, but it could certainly help. Learn from whichever avenues are available. It's like Yohji says - you have to learn the traditions, you need to know how to make a shirt before you can change it and make something new. People seem in a hurry to make something new without having that background knowledge.

But yeah, never take yourself or fashion too seriously! I could wear head-to-toe Muji for the rest of my life, but where is the fun in that? :tounge:

thanks for coming over here to post syed, I like your contributions over at SZ too so I hope you stick around.

Thank you also

his work might or might not start from the back, i think he places a lot of emphasis on it and the curves from the nape of the neck down the back, but I wouldn't assume that he necessarily wants his clothes to presented back first. Didn't he often say that a strong back makes the front, or something in that vein? Either way (unfortunately?), fashion is fed to us from the front, for Yohji as well.

It was more a passing thought really. I wonder how different it would be if show videos were recorded by a camera at the other end of the runway - the models walking away from us before they turn back and face us coming back. I mean, the audience sit on either side, so they see most of the looks side-on. Those close to catwalk start see the back of the looks at first, then the front as the models come back. Those at the far end see the front of the looks, and then the models turn away and they see the back. Sometimes I just wish I could see all the looks in 3D for want of seeing them in person.

 

[asobu]



It was more a passing thought really. I wonder how different it would be if show videos were recorded by a camera at the other end of the runway - the models walking away from us before they turn back and face us coming back. I mean, the audience sit on either side, so they see most of the looks side-on. Those close to catwalk start see the back of the looks at first, then the front as the models come back. Those at the far end see the front of the looks, and then the models turn away and they see the back. Sometimes I just wish I could see all the looks in 3D for want of seeing them in person.

Incidentally this is how they seemed to record the AW12 collection for Yohji femme. I remember being very pleasantly surprised when I saw it. It's up on youtube, I'll see if I can find the link later on but I think it's the "official" video that will go up on the YY website once next season starts. Unfortunately due to the pacing it doesn't work as well as I hoped for, I wish the models would come out and finish their walk before the next one comes ut. At the beginning of the 90's he often had his models (at least for menswear) walk down the runway 2, 3 or 4 times before exiting. This is only tangentally related but the pacing for his AW10 show or AW99 is pretty mcuh perfect imo, when each model could be seen walking in a relaxed pace for a more extended period of time, when there was actually time to perceive the whole outfit before the next one is thrown in the watcher/consumer's face.


Great post again, btw. Hopefully I can respond a bit more when I have the time.