Why the rules for men's clothes are obsolete

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by Roger

I saw a considered OP by FNB, and a very informative reply by Manton. I learned some things from the points raised--and, yes, they are meaningful to me...
Thanks and i agree completely. Hopefully, we will see more of the same. We have had a few too many "What to wear to an interview posts" I thought it would be nice to re focus discussions clothes and style again. Everyone should feel free to join in and discuss an interesting time where no one person holds the answers. I dont necessarily see why something needs to hold "meaning' to be discussed. A lot of entertaining things hold a lot of meaning for what they are and no meaning when compared to a much graver situation but it doesn't invalidate their importance. But clothes do hold meanings and if someone, like edmorel, gets frustrated, doesn't understand and throws up their arms because it is a strain to think things through, well then hopefully others can give them enough of an example. Who knows, after they get the training wheels off they might contribute wonders.

Originally Posted by Roger

For that reason, I would like to ensure that the two forumers involved--along with the many others who can contribute to this--are not dissuaded from doing so by ad hominem attacks.
Hasn't stopped me yet. Edmorel is rather harmless and dozes off after a few minutes

 

[edmorel]

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

Hasn't stopped me yet. Edmorel is rather harmless and dozes off after a few minutes

You are correct on both counts

I guess your training wheels comment is apropos, I equate a lot of this to training wheels and I thought we all learned to ride a bike many moons ago. Of course if you believe that I am one of those with training wheels, then my comment becomes ironic and worthy of a good laugh. Either way, I am due to doze off any minute so I'll be on my way.

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by edmorel

I was not aware that this was a "******* is bigger than *********" thread. I will whip out just enough to beat all you guys so that we can move on.

Since I have now officially replied to this thread, I am afraid that the best for which you can hope is second place.

Life can be tough that way.

- B

 

[Roger]

To both of you guys--and anyone else: What are your thoughts about what will replace the suit as we know it today? I don't have the knowledge and perspective to predict long-term paradigm shifts like this, but don't see at the moment anything seriously competing with the suit (or odd jacket/trousers, as JLibourel has added). What we are seeing are tiny refinements or superficial changes made to the suit form, but nothing really different has emerged. The trends we're seeing include less wearing of the suit, but not really its displacement by a new form (unless we consider its absence a new form).

When the lounge suit replaced the stroller and morning dress around the beginning of the 20th century, how did this change take place? Was there a long period (perhaps two decades) of overlap in which both were considered acceptable? Or was there a pretty rapid shift away from the longer-tailed garments, with them being completely "out of style" in a period of just several years? In some ways it's hard to see the transition from the longer-tailed ensembles to the lounge suit as a truly fundamental paradigm shift. In many ways, the new form was not much more than a streamlining of the old. Can we expect the lounge suit to evolve into something different in this fashion, or are we in for a true fundamental change in form?

 

[DocHolliday]

Sometimes I think Star Trek got it right:

Shirts and trousers. No ties or coats, minimal ornamentation. Lots of black combined with bold colors. Not too different than what we see on most young guys going to the office.

 

[Bird's One View]

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

Sometimes I think Star Trek got it right: Shirts and trousers. No ties or coats, minimal ornamentation. Lots of black combined with bold colors. Not too different than what we see on most young guys going to the office.
Indeed. They had their trousers hemmed rather high as well.

 

[Orsini]

Originally Posted by DocHolliday

Thank you. I'm in my prime.
Glad to hear it. I lived in Arizona whgen I was younger. It was hell with sand on top...

 

[eg1]

Originally Posted by JLibourel

I thought the FNB/Manton exchange was fascinating and informative, nothwithstanding the well-known tension between the two principals.

Amid these musings about the decline of the suit, the rise of business casual, etc., I am left wondering where the odd jacket (e.g., the tailored sport coat or blazer) fits in. Personally, I typically wear a sport coat and tie to my casual office. Yes, it is still overdressed and eccentric, but less so, I think, than the routine wearing of a suit to the office would be. The odd jacket can be rendered more casual by not wearing a tie. At least in the States, an odd jacket with an open collar is an acceptable look, certainly less "daring" or "edgy" than the suit with an open-collared shirt. There is also the option of the ascot, for those who choose it (admittedly at grave risk of looking eccentric and costume-y).

Here in California (home of the notorious "California tux"), the odd jacket seems to be all but interchangeable with the suit. At almost any "dressy" event I have attended in recent years--weddings, funerals, banquets--a fair percentage of the men have been wearing odd jackets in lieu of suits.

So, the question I will toss out to the heavy hitters is, will the versatile odd jacket survive and to a large extent displace the suit as dress wear, or will it be perceived as merely the "Lite" alternative to the suit and go down along with the suit?

For whatever reason, based on my limited observation, odd jackets seem more popular with older men. Younger men either seem to perfer a suit or go directly to the dismal expedient of shirt and tie sans coat when they wish to dress down from the suit.

If it's any indication, young people will often remark to me when I am wearing an odd jacket and slacks "nice suit, sir!"

I agree that older men will more often rock the odd jacket -- as I get older I tend to wear them more often than suits. In fact, I don't expect to be ordering very many more custom-tailored suits, but will be adding more custom-tailored odd jackets.

 

[JLibourel]

Originally Posted by eg1

If it's any indication, young people will often remark to me when I am wearing an odd jacket and slacks "nice suit, sir!"

Young and not so young, in my experience. Women commit this error more commonly than men, but it is scarcely peculiar to the fair sex.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by JLibourel

Young and not so young, in my experience. Women commit this error more commonly than men, but it is scarcely peculiar to the fair sex.
This is a constant discussion in my house. my wife is quite knowledgeable about clothing, and likes and encourages me, but it seems that at least every other week she feels the need to examine, in depth, the differences between suits and sportcoats, their uses, their levels of formality etc. I am not sure whether she is expecting me to change my mind, or just using it as a gauge for early Alzheimer's.

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by edmorel

There is no debate here and if you can't see that you are either blind or have not been around long enough. This is simply another installment in the "FNB thinks Manton is an insufferable twit/Manton thinks FNB is a stalking psycho" drama

Sadly, the underlying dynamic you identify -- or something like it -- does exist, but I disagree that there is no debate here. I think it is obvious that there is.

 

[esspee1200]

mens clothes dont need rules. to each his own style.

 

[cs1]

Originally Posted by iammatt

This is a constant discussion in my house. my wife is quite knowledgeable about clothing, and likes and encourages me, but it seems that at least every other week she feels the need to examine, in depth, the differences between suits and sportcoats, their uses, their levels of formality etc. I am not sure whether she is expecting me to change my mind, or just using it as a gauge for early Alzheimer's.

LOL, my wife's knowledge of clothes ends at running apperal.

 

[porcelain monkey]

Originally Posted by Roger

To both of you guys--and anyone else: What are your thoughts about what will replace the suit as we know it today? I don't have the knowledge and perspective to predict long-term paradigm shifts like this, but don't see at the moment anything seriously competing with the suit (or odd jacket/trousers, as JLibourel has added). What we are seeing are tiny refinements or superficial changes made to the suit form, but nothing really different has emerged. The trends we're seeing include less wearing of the suit, but not really its displacement by a new form (unless we consider its absence a new form).

When the lounge suit replaced the stroller and morning dress around the beginning of the 20th century, how did this change take place? Was there a long period (perhaps two decades) of overlap in which both were considered acceptable? Or was there a pretty rapid shift away from the longer-tailed garments, with them being completely "out of style" in a period of just several years? In some ways it's hard to see the transition from the longer-tailed ensembles to the lounge suit as a truly fundamental paradigm shift. In many ways, the new form was not much more than a streamlining of the old. Can we expect the lounge suit to evolve into something different in this fashion, or are we in for a true fundamental change in form?

This is just a guess, but I think it is generational. Younger men begin to wear the more modern styles and most older men keep wearing what they have. My grandfather (born 1908) wore a hat until his dieing days. May father (born 1944) never owned one as far as I know. I can imagine older gents wearing long suit coats to the office and tuxedos and opera capes in the evening until well after gentlemen of the younger generation did it with any regularity. The later seasons of Upstairs Downstairs chronicle this transition quite nicely in England. It may also be that cataclysmic events, such as World War I and II were for Europe, may speed the process up.

As for what will be the next wave. I dunno. I hope it is not the "mini suit" in the Thom Browne mold, but I wouldn't bet against jackets getting smaller. I know that I (born 1968) will keep wearing my suits the same way I always have.

 

[Mark from Plano]

Originally Posted by Roger

To both of you guys--and anyone else: What are your thoughts about what will replace the suit as we know it today? I don't have the knowledge and perspective to predict long-term paradigm shifts like this, but don't see at the moment anything seriously competing with the suit (or odd jacket/trousers, as JLibourel has added). What we are seeing are tiny refinements or superficial changes made to the suit form, but nothing really different has emerged. The trends we're seeing include less wearing of the suit, but not really its displacement by a new form (unless we consider its absence a new form).

When the lounge suit replaced the stroller and morning dress around the beginning of the 20th century, how did this change take place? Was there a long period (perhaps two decades) of overlap in which both were considered acceptable? Or was there a pretty rapid shift away from the longer-tailed garments, with them being completely "out of style" in a period of just several years? In some ways it's hard to see the transition from the longer-tailed ensembles to the lounge suit as a truly fundamental paradigm shift. In many ways, the new form was not much more than a streamlining of the old. Can we expect the lounge suit to evolve into something different in this fashion, or are we in for a true fundamental change in form?

If Sator is correct and the last major shift involved the gentrification of the casual...that is, that suits began, as he so often points out, as beach and sporting wear...it seems to me quite possible that the next round of business attire will involve a rather large dose of denim.