Why do British and European shoes not offer wide widths?

[Stilig]

I am American. I am not big. I wear 44R. I never played football,
beyond age 12. I used to run 20-30 miles/week Now I walk.
I wear 4E running shoes (trainers) It is practically impossible
for me to find dress shoes that fit in the US, UK, France, Italy,
Austria, and Hungary.

A 44R is quite a big size by European standards. When I worked in retail, we covered probably 80% of customers with 38-42R. For MTM maybe one out of every ten to fifteen clients used a 44R or bigger as a base.

For shoes, we worked primarily with Crockett & Jones. During the four years that I worked in the store, I can only remember perhaps 3-4 cases where we had to order something outside the standard width. I suspect that is in part due to physical differences, and in part due to a cultural difference in the preferred fit.

What?

Yes. It's my subjective experience that, on average, Americans prefer looser fits in shoes and clothes to feel more comfortable. I don't think that's the case on this forum, but there aren't a lot of shoe brands that could survive on this demographic alone.

I've run a couple of trunk shows with Riccardo Bestetti for shoes and Mauro Blasi for tailoring. Riccardo told me that Europeans, in general, liked tighter shoes than his American clients. Mauro said that Americans tend to prefer looser fits, and don't like to be "hugged" by their jackets in the same way. I guess there's also a cultural element in terms of the preferred silhouette.

 

[DWFII]

I guess just like with most brands, they cater to a certain core customer base and their immediate local historical customer base. I am guessing that they just don't have that many customers that need the extra sizes - Japanese RTW shoes are sure beautiful but none of them fit me in the slightest.

I suspect that it's not a European vs. 'the rest of the world' thing. American manufacturers don't, as a rule, offer more than a couple of widths either, although they may tend to offer more in wider widths. D's and E's mostly

I suspect it is as you suggest--they cater to a demographic and statistical average...everyone else can take a hike--there's not enough profit in buying and storing lasts that are seldom used. Or making shoes in sizes that there is very little demand for.

Beyond all that is simply that people in general don't really know what a good fit is. So sales people...even the manufacturers themselves...will try to put the client in a longer shoe when confronted with a wider foot. A 9D will be proportionately wider than an 8D. Nevermind that the ball joint of the foot will undoubtedly socket into the shoe at a location that will not properly support the foot. And not only do the manufacturers and sales people regard that as an acceptable kludge, customer's accept it--submissively, docilely.

Keep in mind that in US last sizes there are at least 9 widths for every length which the lathe can be readily adjusted to turn--AAA, AA, A, B, C, D, E, EE. EEE. Lastmaking companies can actually turn lasts beyond the extremes--an H, for instance, but even the double xx's are not usual.

And if a customer complains, so what?! if a company is turning out 10,000 pairs of shoes a day...and selling them...the customer with a A width foot is just one lonely voice in the wilderness--hardly heard and nevermind.

And yes it's discrimination...but no one in a factory mentality, consumer oriented society is really worried that an angry mob with torches and pitchforks will spontaneously arise under the SSM (Shoe Size Matters) moniker and start looting shoe stores.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Yes. It's my subjective experience that, on average, Americans prefer looser fits in shoes and clothes to feel more comfortable. I don't think that's the case on this forum, but there aren't a lot of shoe brands that could survive on this demographic alone.

I've run a couple of trunk shows with Riccardo Bestetti for shoes and Mauro Blasi for tailoring. Riccardo told me that Europeans, in general, liked tighter shoes than his American clients. Mauro said that Americans tend to prefer looser fits, and don't like to be "hugged" by their jackets in the same way. I guess there's also a cultural element in terms of the preferred silhouette.

My friend agrees:

 

[DWFII]

Oh and BTW...it's the same with lengths--few manufactures offer anything shorter than a size six (approx. 39 in Euro sizes) or larger than an eleven. And even when I was a young man (a long time ago), half sizes were already on the road to extinction.

 

[JFWR]

Oh and BTW...it's the same with lengths--few manufactures offer anything shorter than a size six (approx. 39 in Euro sizes) or larger than an eleven. And even when I was a young man (a long time ago), half sizes were already on the road to extinction.

I usually see up to at least size 13 us.

12.5 has disappeared.

But I've no problem getting us 11.5 or 12 which I most usually wear.

 

[TheShetlandSweater]

When I was getting into CM type stuff, I thought I had super-wide feet. Indeed, my feet are flat and wider an I did wear something like 4E in my tennis shoes. When I first tried AE seconds, I got them in a very extra wide width (maybe 3E). Perhaps I could have worn that width--they were comfortable--but then I got fitted at an Alden shop and realized that I didn't really need the super wide widths. There are still brands and shoe styles I struggle with in regular widths, and perhaps my shoes are tighter in certain areas than they should be, but I can generally wear a normal shoe width.

My guess is that there are a lot of US consumers like me who think that their feet are much wider than they are. They are accustomed to tennis shoes which fit differently and which many people like to wear on the looser side.

 

[Nobilis Animus]

When I was getting into CM type stuff, I thought I had super-wide feet. Indeed, my feet are flat and wider an I did wear something like 4E in my tennis shoes. When I first tried AE seconds, I got them in a very extra wide width (maybe 3E). Perhaps I could have worn that width--they were comfortable--but then I got fitted at an Alden shop and realized that I didn't really need the super wide widths. There are still brands and shoe styles I struggle with in regular widths, and perhaps my shoes are tighter in certain areas than they should be, but I can generally wear a normal shoe width.

My guess is that there are a lot of US consumers like me who think that their feet are much wider than they are. They are accustomed to tennis shoes which fit differently and which many people like to wear on the looser side.

I think most people who are new to classic clothing often mistake their shoe size as being much bigger for the same reason. They are used to very casual shoe sizing, and do not know how a dress shoe should fit.

And then when you mention "breaking them in" and the need for shoehorns...well.

 

[DWFII]

When I was getting into CM type stuff, I thought I had super-wide feet. Indeed, my feet are flat and wider an I did wear something like 4E in my tennis shoes. When I first tried AE seconds, I got them in a very extra wide width (maybe 3E). Perhaps I could have worn that width--they were comfortable--but then I got fitted at an Alden shop and realized that I didn't really need the super wide widths. There are still brands and shoe styles I struggle with in regular widths, and perhaps my shoes are tighter in certain areas than they should be, but I can generally wear a normal shoe width.

My guess is that there are a lot of US consumers like me who think that their feet are much wider than they are. They are accustomed to tennis shoes which fit differently and which many people like to wear on the looser side.

Well, I'm sure you are correct...again, most people don't really know what a good fit is. However, there is always the risk of going the other way. ...an E width foot can be fit with a wide last...wide across the treadline...or it can be 'fit' with a narrow last, as long as the measurements are congruent with the foot.

But the correct way to fit a foot is to respect the plantar (weight bearing) surface--the footprint. If you can reach down and squeeze the sides of your foot along the inside edge of the welt and not feel the insole at all, chances are you are not fit at all. The plantar surface has been shorted and the foot will overhang the welt. And chances, are good that you will tend to 'walk over/out' the shoes.

Of course, the same is true in reverse...if you can reach down and squeeze your foot and only feel insole, again the plantar surface of the foot has been disrespected. Aside from whatever marginal comfort and support the vamp supporting the sides of your foot might afford, that gap between the footprint and the edge of the insole is just a lint trap. And chances are that the 'snugness', if any that you felt first time out will disappear and loosen up.

Footprint / plantar surface first (should rightfully take precedence), then measurements.

 

[TheShetlandSweater]

Well, I'm sure you are correct...again, most people don't really know what a good fit is. However, there is always the risk of going the other way. ...an E width foot can be fit with a wide last...wide across the treadline...or it can be 'fit' with a narrow last, as long as the measurements are congruent with the foot.

But the correct way to fit a foot is to respect the plantar (weight bearing) surface--the footprint. If you can reach down and squeeze the sides of your foot along the inside edge of the welt and not feel the insole at all, chances are you are not fit at all. The plantar surface has been shorted and the foot will overhang the welt. And chances, are good that you will tend to 'walk over/out' the shoes.

Of course, the same is true in reverse...if you can reach down and squeeze your foot and only feel insole, again the plantar surface of the foot has been disrespected. Aside from whatever marginal comfort and support the vamp supporting the sides of your foot might afford, that gap between the footprint and the edge of the insole is just a lint trap. And chances are that the 'snugness', if any that you felt first time out will disappear and loosen up.

Footprint / plantar surface first (should rightfully take precedence), then measurements.

This is helpful. Based on this, I guess my shoes probably fit too tight through the waist, but okay up front. Maybe a couple of my Aldens fit well throughout. My feet are weird enough that I doubt I would get a great fit without getting bespoke. My shoes are sufficiently comfortable, though, that I can wear them throughout the day without being in pain. That might not be the highest bar, but I guess it will have to do for me.

 

[JFWR]

When I was getting into CM type stuff, I thought I had super-wide feet. Indeed, my feet are flat and wider an I did wear something like 4E in my tennis shoes. When I first tried AE seconds, I got them in a very extra wide width (maybe 3E). Perhaps I could have worn that width--they were comfortable--but then I got fitted at an Alden shop and realized that I didn't really need the super wide widths. There are still brands and shoe styles I struggle with in regular widths, and perhaps my shoes are tighter in certain areas than they should be, but I can generally wear a normal shoe width.

My guess is that there are a lot of US consumers like me who think that their feet are much wider than they are. They are accustomed to tennis shoes which fit differently and which many people like to wear on the looser side.

That is possibly true for many gentlemen, but I can attest: I got wide feet.

I've been properly sized at Allen Edmonds and at Alden, and both were explicit that 3E was my proper width. Not only that, but I've had the experience where my feet will literally not fit into smaller sizes. Like I have attempted to buy a size 12 shoe thinking that the extra length would make it okay to wiggle into what I took to be a relatively wide shoe: nope, I can't even fit my feet into those shoes.

Sometimes, depending on the last, I can fit into an E, but that is relatively rare in and of itself - and if the last is narrow in general, no luck for me!

I wonder what the basis of foot width is all about? Is it genetics? Upbringing? Exercise? I know flat feet is often environmental.