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Why all the hate for wholecuts?

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Caustic Man, Mar 25, 2015.

  1. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I'm going to be brief here...(or try)...people tend to throw around terms like "evidence" with little or no justification. Personal experience is not evidence. Conjecture is not evidence. Likes are not evidence.

    Opinion is not evidence unless it is based on objective demonstrable fact.

    What people believe is not evidence nor even some sort of self-fullfilling justification for their own beliefs. Many people today believe that Vikings wore helms with horns on them. Nothing can be further from the demonstrable fact. Most people...including the History Channel apparently...accept and believe that medieval shoes boasted heels or that Vikings had heels on their "boots." Again, not true, not provable.

    We can go on and on about common mis-perceptions being all too often tragically wrong, despite being widespread.

    Just because people believe things that are not true doesn't make them true or give a rationale to them. It only demonstrates the appalling and often willful impulse towards ignorance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2015


  2. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

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    I really think you are missing my point. I'm not saying that to be a dick, I'm just saying it because it's true. This is what I'm trying to say... The fact is that some people believe something IS a fact. What they believe may not be verifiable but whether or not they believe in it, IS verifiable. That's a large part of what the field of intellectual history is based on. It doesn't matter whether what they believe is a verifiable fact or not, the fact lies in that a group of people accepted a belief at a particular place and time. We can trace those beliefs through time using evidence. That is not insignificant. It's provides insights into a number of things that are historically and socially relevant. Protocols of formality are the same type of thing. It doesn't matter whether or not it is just an opinion that a tuxedo is more formal than a tweed suit, what matters is the fact that the concept is accepted as normative in society. THAT is the whole point of the exercise, to understand the basis for accepted protocols in society. Make sense?
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2015


  3. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Yes, I see that. It does make sense....as far as it goes. But so what?! Everything we see, know, think, and believe falls into that category. We are not Gods. In all likelihood everything we think we know is wrong.

    Certainly...as Oscar Wilde said..."Everything popular is wrong."

    If we are responsible, mindful human beings we strive towards culling out that which we know is wrong (and / or cannot be proven) and we further strive to not perpetuate those falsehoods.

    That's all we can do.

    P.S. I never did think you were trying to be a dick. No worries.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2015


  4. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

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    I understand that you may not think this exercise is important but there are whole fields of people who have dedicated their academic lives to understanding subjects like these (if not conforming to them). I realize I run the risk of making myself look like someone who is espousing the intellectual equivalent of "art for art's sake" but I assure you nothing could be further from the truth. Understanding things like these are interesting because it gives us a basis for understanding the intellectual history of society. That is important because it gives us an invaluable perspective on where our ideas come from. I know that I'm getting very broad with that statement but let me try to distill it down to the protocols of formality. On its face, no, understanding formally isn't going to save the world from nuclear war (or will it?). However neither will being able to accurately identify 200 different kinds of birds, nor will being able to historical place period costume at a glance These are hobbies and it's ok if people delve deeply into them. Although being able to identify birds is a hobby it is still based in the principles of ornithology. Similarly our hobby is based in the principles of visual aesthetics (not as subjective as some would think) and the history of menswear. It is possible to ascertain certain principles from the evidence available and, although we may say that there are always oddities or exceptions, we can also say that the principles are not simply made up anew every day.
     


  5. merick

    merick Well-Known Member

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  6. The Saint

    The Saint Senior member

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    This is not the kind of formal Highland Dress you would see of an evening in Sauciehall St , maybe at a Highland Gathering or at a re-enactment but well turned out , nevertheless .

    You certainly look a lot better in the garb than Mr Simpson that is for sure . .

    Some of those old paintings were romanticised in the Victorian era when the ban on the plaid was lifted . Clansmen tended to wear a more simple plaid with only the Chieftain and his retainers having the full Highland dress . .
     


  7. MyOtherLife

    MyOtherLife Senior member

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    My simian-like walking patterns prohibit me from enjoying wholecuts, though I am thoroughly enjoying this thread.
     


  8. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Probably a Montrose Doublet or at least a Prince Charlie with a jabot.. But I have seen photos of balls at which the Royal family was purportedly in attendance where buckle shoes and tartan hose were being worn among many of the participants.

    That said, while I am no expert I know quite a lot about the history of the kilt and Highland wear and about the MacSuibhne clan/family. And I've looked at hundreds and hundreds of old photos and paintings. I also know that by the time of the American Revolutionary War, the feileadh-beg was replacing the feileadh-mor. And that kilted Scots regiments fought on American soil.

    thank you

    Yes, of course. And while spotty and inconclusive, the evidence suggests that clan tartans were somewhat vague until King George IV's Procession in 1822, when pressure was put on the clan chiefs to appear in Clan Tartan. And Wilson's of Bannockburn was "persuaded" to come up with setts ...probably based partly on historic orders and partly on the Vestarium Scoticum.

    George IV by Wilkie

    [​IMG]

    And having said all that the famous painting by David Morier, who some say was an eyewitness to the Battle at Culloden Moor in 1746, depicts highland warriors in many different tartan kilts as well as trews but most wearing tartan hose. (click to enlarge) Admittedly probably not an accurate depiction of the setts and maybe not even the battle itself.

    [​IMG]


    And just because we all like photos, here's purportedly one taken in 1870 of a clan Chieftan (not specified.)

    [​IMG]

    Not sure who this guy is...Sir something or other...and probably very late 19th-early 20th century

    [​IMG]

    And one of Castle Sween (Suibhne)--the oldest standing stone castle in Scotland in Knapdale on Loch Sween)

    [​IMG]

    And to CM...and the rest of the lads, I apologize for the OT posts. Don't gt me started. :D

    --
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2015


  9. The Saint

    The Saint Senior member

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    Good post . .

    I'm aware of many a picture showing the Highland garb worn with tartan/plaid hose but I can honestly say that , this lifetime I can only ever recall seeing it on the military or perhaps being worn by a member of a pipe band . Other than these two circumstances , no one wears them here. I'm not saying it is wrong to wear them just that no one wears them apart from the two groups mentioned but to be fair in your picture you wear the outfit , rather well. .

    As far as Hanoverians wearing it , that I find a bit distasteful considering the genocide they visited upon the original wearers of the Highland Dress which they also chose to proscribe for 36yrs. .
     


  10. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

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    I thought it was kind of interesting, actually. If we eventually get back to shoes, that's fine. lol
     


  11. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

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    Speaking of shoes, I'm beginning to think I really need some kind of shells.
     


  12. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    I'm not quite as mad for shell as many on this forum, but I do have a few pairs in the rotation and enjoy them. What styles are you considering?
     


  13. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

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    Something casual. Maybe a plain toe blucher. I don't think I want a whole cut.
     


  14. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    That would be a nice choice. I have a Carmina two-eyelet derby in saddle shell that is a summer favorite.
     


  15. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

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