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whnay.'s good taste thread

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Manton, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Stitch, I think it would look better if tie and square were not both wool (dry). That is, wool tie + silk square or vice versa. (Cashmere counts as wool in this case.) Vary the textures.
     
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  2. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    I hear ya, but I am matchy in nature. I was hoping the weave of the tie was different enough from the fuzzyiness of the square to create some variation. Perhaps I was wrong. I do though have a hard time with a dry wool tie and wet silk hank, it looks varied, but in an incoherent way, to me. Maybe I need more brain/eye training.

    Thanks for the feedback, will keep it in mind for future pairings.

    Also, glad to see you have not left the thread after last nights brouhaha of sorts. : )
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
  3. Stencil

    Stencil Senior member

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    ^^

    Stitchy, my impulse would have been to switch to a silk tie and hold on to the wool square, at the very least because the suit and tie weave look so similar. That, and I like wool squares with worsteds. I think Manton is right that you've got a too much wool happening overall. Otherwise, I think you vary pattern and color saturation wonderfully there, per Gdl's comment. A pleasure to look at.
     
  4. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    Quote:I personally like the colour palette, but would replace the tie with something more "suit-ish" than wool. Not a big deal though, and overall I think the fit works well.
     
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  5. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I like wool ties with suits and wear them in fall / winter, not exclusively, but half to 2/3s of the time. However, always with a puffed silk square.
     
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  6. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    I think it works with such a suit because it's not one of those fluffy wool ties...

    Manton, would you use wool challis with a city suit? I'm always tempted, but my eyes tell me it looks off, so I kinda trust my own aesthetic judgement...
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
  7. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

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    To my eye, this effect is exaggerated by the jacket's pattern as well. For that reason, I think I'd prefer a less textured silk tie with that jacket. Then again, that may be entirely an effect of the close-up photo and completely irrelevant to the fit's real-world sexiness.
     
  8. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Often.
     
  9. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    Oh. I thought of them as sportcoat / casual suit ties. Guess they work with a city suit in the right context, though something still looks off to me... perhaps they don't work with all city suits, or maybe it also depends on the tie itself? Some of mine have quite big neats which I wouldn't wear with a worsted, solid, flap pocket suit...
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
  10. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    I drop this in here with a lot of hesitance, as I admit, my eyes glazed over a lot of the posts you, unbelragazzo, and foo made with regards to philosophy.

    At least for me, the issue is not whether there are rules or no rules. It's about how we come to understand those rules.

    In my view, classic dress and good taste are ever changing, but with regards to how we understand them in this thread, it's more or less defined by a certain elite class of Westerners, say, from 1930s until 1980s. Granted, there was a lot of variation in classic dress in that period, but as Fuuma I think said early on in this thread -- for the interest of people here, it's a narrow subset of that class.

    What more is there than that? I don't buy that the things we wear can be thought of as philosophical issues. Philosophers have given up on trying to arrive at absolute truths, yet we're supposed to achieve that in the area of aesthetics?

    It's easier for me to understand philosophy as such: you take a certain set of first principles, then see what conclusions you must arrive at from those assumptions.

    Dress in this case isn't too different. If one wants to look like that certain class of Americans and Englishmen -- which somewhat died off sometime in the 80s -- then there are certain rules to their dress. Those dress codes are somewhat governed by aesthetics (I won't say that certain things don't inherently look good), but by and large, they're mostly governed by social customs. Unfortunately, few people in this thread -- barring Manton, dopey, Vox, RSS, and a few other people -- have any interaction or experience with that class. So, dressing in this way feels new and alien, and one has to figure out those codes by ... well ... looking at pictures.

    If one doesn't accept those assumptions, then yes, I think those codes have very implication on one's behavior. There are plenty of people who dress well and don't follow those codes.

    If philosophy applies at all to dress, it's in the way philosophers go about deriving conclusions. What are your first principles and how do you move forward from there. If one wants to look classic in this narrow sense, then there were dress codes that used to govern a certain social class. They were social rules, which more or less don't exist today. If one does not want to look classic in this narrow sense, then you'll have to figure out what aesthetics please you and figure out what relative rules govern that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
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  11. edmorel

    edmorel Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Has anyone seen Voxsartoria :confused: I hope he is OK, he is missed.
     
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  12. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    If you aren't interested in the philosophy, don't read it. Why is this so hard for people? Foo repeated something that I and many others have long found oddly perverse--not his dislike of w+w per se, but his insistence that it is intrinsically bad, a "badness" that none of the rest of us can see. Except edmorel, who hates all squares on principle. I explained why foo can't be right about that. Some wanted to hear it. That's all. Complaning about posts one shouldn't have read is also so 2005. I don't want to read the New York Times every day and so I ... don't.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
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  13. romafan

    romafan Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    "Don't worry, it's not white."
     
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  14. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    I think I was misunderstood in something I said before, regarding people not changing from seeing something that is good to seeing it as bad, based on some things people have replied to me. I think its somewhat related to the topic at hand, so I felt like expounding.

    I tried to be clear that the caveat was that that assertion applied to non n00bs only. Without question, how I see things now, and what looks good or bad, has vastly changed from how I used to see things. No more bright yellow floral Brioni ties with yellow gradient stripe shirts and no jacket (yes I wore that once, never posted it though).

    But that was because I had no understanding of classical Mens dress. Now that I do, I see all that garbage as horrible, and I think that stuff was objectively bad. Along with many of the fits I posted for a long while.

    However, now that I feel that I have a pretty firm grasp on things, and that I dress reasonably well and tastefully, and I hope I can say that without sounding too braggadocios or out of touch with reality, I think that there are certain things that appeal to me, or dont appeal to me, and that likely wont change. I think that is true of most people that have reached a good level of understanding in any particular area. Be it in dress, or some other area.

    A quick example, in his critique of my fit, Manton said he disliked the wool tie + wool PS, he felt dry on dry was sub-optimal, and that a silk hank would be better with that tie, or a silk tie with that hank. I pretty much disagree. I think the coherency of the tie and square is spot on, and had I been wearing a silk square, it would be too wet for my eye, and would look out of place in the otherwise fuzzy ensemble. I think that the different wool textures, along with the variation in pattern and colors of the two items, were varied enough that it was quite coherent.

    I dont think that will ever change. I like things that are correlated, and wet silk plus dry wool, to my eye, looks off. That is how I perceive beauty, based on what appeals to my eye, and based on the knowledge I have garnered from leaning about Classical Men's Dress over the past number of years. To Manton, its the exact opposite.

    Granted, Manton has far more knowledge than I, I still think that there is no true wrong or right here, and I hope I can say that without Manton feeling like I am dismissing him, and just dressing how I like regardless of the feedback he gave. I do consider all the feedback I receive, some strikes home, some not as much. I dont think that because feedback is issued, that places some onus on the receiver to, without regard for his own tastes, adhere to what has been said, if he reasonably has the knowledge and understanding to have formed a fair opinion on the matter.

    Beauty cannot ever be fully defined, and there will always be some things that appeal to some people, and not others, and that does not make one side wrong by default. Yes, there is objective bad and good, but there is plenty of middle ground as well. I think its simple personal preference.

    I dont know why there is, and Im often dumbstruck by it, this great need for some people to keep articulating things over and over again, with the hope that eventually everyone will agree to one point of view and one clean defined rule can emerge. Its just not going to happen. I appreciate that Manton does not not like my combination of square and tie, and he has every right to feel that way. I do not begrudge him that, I am not mad about it, and I do not expect him to change his mind because I feel otherwise, even though I feel justified in how I feel, regardless of how well I may be able to articulate my point of view, and how many "proofs" I can bring to the table. I have no compulsion forcing me to only be at peace when everyone agrees with my opinion.

    I am not saying conversation should be stifled, and everyone should just continue to do whatever the hell they want, disregard out of hand the opinions of those with great knowledge, and just flush learning down the toilet. All I am saying is, that sometimes, when an opinion is stated, its sufficient to acknowledge it, consider it, thank the person for taking the time to share their point of view, and do what you feel you need to do. Maybe you never agree with it, maybe 5 years later your taste changes, who knows. As opposed to trying force the opposition to come to some epiphany where they do a 180 and retract their statement and agree that you are indeed the best clothing combinator of all times!

    In a room of experts/enthusiasts/connoisseurs, there will always be things that have great appeal to some, and minimal to none to others, and that is 100% fine and natural, and thats how things should be, imo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
  15. UrbanComposition

    UrbanComposition Senior member

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    I like your tie & square personally, Stitch, but just for argument's sake: do you have any madder silk squares? They're less "wet" and go great with wooly ties.
     
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  16. YRR92

    YRR92 Senior member

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    How do you feel about wet/wet? I wear a lot of repp ties, and I know I should eventually pick up some madder or challis squares, but should I push them up the list? I generally wear oxford cloth shirts and tweed jackets, FWIW.
     
  17. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    Thanks!!

    I think I have one, but I never love it when I match it up with a wool or cashmere tie. I do have some wool and silk combo squares that might be right in the middle.

    For what it's worth, and it's certainly possible no one will believe me here, my post was not about defending that combination, it just turned out to be a good example of the point that I had wanted to make.
     
  18. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    One of my favorite squares is a burgundy madder square. It's so hard to find to find madder squares with good patterns and designs though.
     
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  19. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I dislike it less, but I tend to wear linen with repp ties.

    I do like slightly napped silk squares that have a drier look. Have a few of those. Will wear with wool ties.
     
  20. Mr. Six

    Mr. Six Senior member

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    Similar to Stitch's but with a textured silk tie and similar wool square. I like Stitch's fit but agree that wool tie and square often leaves some of the texture spectrum unfilled. This seemed fairly taste-y when I wore much earlier this year (though the lighting in the photo is terrible!).

    Also, MORE DISCUSSION IN THIS THREAD (with photos, of course)!

    [​IMG]
     

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