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whnay.'s good taste thread

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Manton, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Does that look comparable to the glen plaid worn by the original poster? I don't think so. Not even close. It has a very bold overcheck. In fact, I have a hard time understanding why Will calls it a glen check to begin with. Unless the original Apparel Arts commentary says to the contrary, it could be any random checked pattern. I would never have guessed it a glen plaid.

    Take a look at the glen plaid flannels issued by Harrisons, Minnis, and Fox. I consider those very archetypical. The base plaid tends to be of medium size, but of muted contrast. The overcheck, if any, tends to be pin-stripe thin. The glen plaid sold at your typical department store tends to be even more subtle. The original poster's glen plaid looks like a very regular sort of glen plaid.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  2. bboysdontcryy

    bboysdontcryy Senior member

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    Aravenel's coat is definitely a suiting, quite unlike the AA illustration.
     
  3. Holdfast

    Holdfast Senior member

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    stitchy, it might also help if you understand that what he's is trying to do with this thread, is - coincidentally, I'm quite sure; he doesn't need my advice - the precise prescription I outlined much earlier in the day in the regular WAYWRN thread, with which you agreed. Only in that case, it was the reverse scenario and we were talking about why complaint/criticism wasn't going to work in the environment of that thread, because it serves a different social purpose.


    Quote:

    Now, flip that around, and you can see exactly why I think he's right that he (and the others judging the thread) need to be robustly didactic in their opinions here. We already have the regular thread for more casual type exchanging of views of outfits where any critique is couched within a more social chatty context and therefore largely blunted because that thread serves a different social function. This thread needs to be something different, or there really isn't any point to its separate existence. It actually doesn't matter what their opinions are, whether you or I agree with them, or even if they agree within themselves (in fact, the last outcome is best of all). It doesn't even matter whether you'd want to follow them in your own clothing choices. What is important, is that this thread will only have life if there is that overly robust expression within it

    A softer but also enjoyable variant of this strong op-ed approach to the discussion was vox's old weekly digest. Were you around for those; I can't remember when they stopped. They were more of an iron fist in a velvet glove approach, but I suspect (I never actually asked) that the intent - or perhaps, just desired outcome - was essentially the same. Think of it that way, and you can get an idea of why mafoofan is being so harsh. Mind you, I don't think he should single you out in particular. No, I think he should be equally direct with everyone who posts in this thread. Almost every other thread takes a more laid-back, inclusive approach (which, admittedly, I personally prefer in terms of my own interactions). I think there's more than enough room for a couple of differently toned threads on the board. At the very least, it will make for entertaining reading. And you never know, reading between the lines, you will probably find one or two real gems that influence your own choices, even if you still end up junking a lot of the rest.

    (for example, the last thing I read on SF that really made me think about what I wear was the discussion on what makes a pocket square pattern work. I think Manton posted that one. Not sure. Anyway, they said that the most versatile patterned squares tend to be the ones that don't have patterns that could also potentially work as ties. That's a really useful mental shortcut, reducing how much thought needs to go into scale co-ordination when choosing a square, and caused me to think about my own selections. It doesn't mean I junked all my old squares, but I did get a few new ones, and I also deploy some of the older ones much more cautiously.)

    I was going to PM you the above, but actually I think it may be useful to post it out here to help others grasp why the ruthlessness is a good thing. It's not actually gratuitous, despite appearances. Naturally, this post itself may disappear (or be spoiler-coded to avoid distracting from the thread) if the thread's internal mods feel it's inappropriate! No worries if they feel that way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
    3 people like this.
  4. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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  5. sugarbutch

    sugarbutch Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    For this threak to reach its apex, other leading lights will need to weigh in with their own assessments. For instance, we already know that Manton and :foo: differ on the suitability of the white linen square. With only :foo: passing judgment, the aesthetic is too narrow to encompass "good taste" instead it's just :foo:'s taste. Still, it's more entertaining than it's been in some time.
     
    3 people like this.
  6. emptym

    emptym Senior member Moderator

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    I think this is a very, very important point.
    1. Instead of paragraph after paragraph, you might try peppering a few qualifying words here and there, such as "usually," "virtually always," "typically," etc.
    2. Such small qualifiers would save you paragraph after paragraph of defending yourself.
     
    1 person likes this.
  7. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Uggh. Yes, I could have added a qualifier. I didn't. So in the immediate follow-up post answering Doc, I admitted very clearly that a large enough, bold enough glen plaid is okay for an odd jacket. Yet here we are still debating--what, I don't know.

    That said, saying "glen plaid is inappropriate for suiting" is infinitely far better guidance than "glen plaid is perfectly fine for an odd jacket." The former will be right nineteen times out of twenty. The latter is likely to result in a whole bunch of wrong odd jackets.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  8. emptym

    emptym Senior member Moderator

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    Oh, I agree w/ you that most glen plaid is best for suits and that you admitted this quickly. My point was just that in this case, and in general, little qualifiers can be immensely helpful. And to add to your second paragraph, while one is bad and the other is good, even better would be "most glen plaid makes for poor sport coats, the exception being ones with large checks."

    Was looking for a long time for a good, large glen check, so I jumped at T4's special run from Breanish.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  9. Sonny58

    Sonny58 Senior member

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    This thread could serve as inspiration to a Bravo reality TV show. Seriously...
     
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  10. hendrix

    hendrix Senior member

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    I actually agree with Mafoofan that cream silk>white linen on most occasions. It looks better with the everything but plain weave suits.
     
  11. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    Aravenel's check seems to ride the line, IMO. If the general rule is that you must go bigger than that for an SC, then the general rule would be saying that glen plaid is only OK if it's FU, which is bizarre.

    The line between when glen plaid is OK for SC and when it's OK for suits, IMO, isn't as simple as whether or not the check is big. It's about whether or not the material itself is distinguishably not suiting. And this has more to do with texture, weave, and pattern than it does with just pattern alone.

    Empty has a huge blown up glen check SC that's clearly not suiting, but if I remember correctly, it looks like a much rougher cloth. Even if the scale wasn't so blown up, I would think it's fine for an SC.

    Really, what people should avoid is a very smooth worsted with a small glen plaid pattern, but this is kind of obvious. I also don't think Aravenel's material is decidedly one or the other either way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
    3 people like this.
  12. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

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    This thread sure picked up in the past day. Say what you want about his interpersonal skills, foo gets em posting.
     
  13. aravenel

    aravenel Senior member

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    Well, I'm glad to see that my coat could cause such heated discussion!

    FWIW, I do wish it were a bit... Louder. It's one of the few coats I have leftover from my early buying days, and I keep it around because it fits me very well, and, well, I like it. But I can definitely see that it's riding the line, so I have to try to keep the rest of the outfit as casual as possible--knit or wool ties, etc.

    In other news, I tried getting shots of my outfit today, but failed miserably. Really needed natural light; flash just wasn't cutting it :( Might have to enlist my wife to help. This will be a big sacrifice, as I am sure I will catch no end of ridicule from her for it. Anything in the name of :foo:!
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  14. aravenel

    aravenel Senior member

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    Also, does anyone else really, really want to see a recondite fit? :lurk:
     
  15. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

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    [​IMG]
     
  16. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    But perhaps the most classic glen plaid suiting comes in the form of flannel. In fact, when you see flannel glen plaids they are always in suiting books, not books for jacketing . Aravenel's glen plaid appears to be worsted flannel. I cannot, for the life of me, imagine such a flannel being used for an odd jacket. My own glen plaid suit, made with cloth from the Harrisons worsted flannel suiting book, is both larger in scale and distinctly more wooly than what he's wearing, yet it is definitely suiting.

    If you want glen plaid jacketing, it's probably going to be in the form of tweed. But even then, it could be intended for a country suit. So no, I don't think the distinction between suiting and jacketing appropriate glen plaid is obvious. Ninety-nine percent of the time you see a glen plaid, it is suit-only cloth. Sometimes it will work for a jacket, but the occasions are so rare, and the distinction is so hard to make without being familiar with what glen plaid suiting looks like, it is safer for beginners to avoid the idea of glen plaid jackets altogether.
     
  17. mktitsworth

    mktitsworth Senior member

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  18. PiCcolocV

    PiCcolocV Senior member

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    Personally, love the direction this is going in and hope this will be a huge source of inspiration and knowledge in reading the critiques outlined. Always wondered what [​IMG]'s thoughts on some of Victors fits would be, so keeping with the one-at-a-time rule (he has posted many):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  19. ThinkDerm

    ThinkDerm Senior member

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    where did you get that suit from? more photos?
     
  20. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    Fair enough.

    I dug up some photos, and you may be right. The ones that I thought worked well tended to be tweeds and/ or large scale patterns. The only exception is maybe Dino's jacket, but I'm not 100% sure it's successful. FWIW, when you see it on him in person, I think he looks great, but that may also be because Dino is exceptionally charming.

    Though, it's hard to tell what material is the first photo.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013

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