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whnay.'s good taste thread

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Manton, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    i dont know who "you guys" is, but i am plenty willing to learn. and as i just said, while his very technical points were not incorrect, that does not mean the fit is necessarily ugly. is my shirt technically to light weight a fabric for my tie, probably, but it still looks good, not just to me, but to others here as well. i am not saying that you or anyone has to like it. few fits are universally seen as good or bad (ok, some are universally bad). but just because someone does not like it, and just because some very nuanced points may not be right, does make a fit objectively bad.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  2. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    No, this is the point I'm trying to get across: it is ugly. For the reasons explained.
     
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  3. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    oh, i never meant to imply that i am not friendly with you. sorry if my reply was overly harsh. i have no beef with you.

    :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  4. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    oh, well, you are wrong. but thanks for your input.
     
  5. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Dude, then why post in this thread? This is supposed to be about good taste, not about what you personally like.
     
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  6. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    because i do not think it is in bad taste. i know what this thread is about. but just because you and T4 say it IS ugly, does not make it ugly or in bad taste. NOBD did not think it was in bad taste, nor did SB. both guys whos opinion i think carries some weight.

    i appreciate your feedback, and that of T4, and it may influence me to use this jacket differently next time, or maybe not. and that feedback alone was worth posting it, coupled with the fact that it was not universally panned, i think it was more than ok to post it here.

    i am not asking you to like it. i am just saying that your opinion of something is not the be all end all. no one persons opinion is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  7. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    This is the same destructive reductionism that rendered WAYWRN the aesthetic equivalent of a post-apocalyptic zombie-overrun carnival wasteland.

    I'm not saying my opinion is the be all end all because it is my opinion. I explained my opinion, as did T4 his. You did not bother to grapple with either. Instead, you fall back on this hippie-dippie "everyone is entitled to their own opinion" nonsense. With no interest in even the possibility of objective good and bad, you cannot learn.

    Let's not let this thread die a WAYWRN-style death. It is a gruesome sight to behold and I don't want to behold it again.
     
    4 people like this.
  8. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    no its not, stop making this out to be more than it is.

    lets get the history right, you did not explain anything. you said it was too monochromatic. NOBD pointed out that it was meant to be a monochromatic fit, and it was. that was the extent of you explaining anything. T4 then appeared as if by magic (he is a pretty magical dood) and in his inimitable prose way, explained quite well what he felt was wrong.

    i wil now address his points, as you are correct in saying that i did not do so.

    the jacket should be burned with fire. that is a purely objective statement. he does not like the jacket. i do. some others may not like it. some others may. this is not an issue of good or bad taste, it is an issue of personal taste. to wit, i posted this same jacket a while back with a blue shirt and a brown with blue neat tie, to almost unanimous praise iirc.

    the poplin of the shirt is too light weight for the tie. that could very well be true, but tbh, i think that borders on nitpicking, and if the pic was not such a close up, i doubt it even would have been noticed. furthermore, not everyone has every color shirt in every possible weight, and the fact that it may be slightly more formal than the tie, which is a plain gray herringbone tie, pretty sedate, not some heartily informal tie, does not in my opinion take it out of the realm of good taste.

    the jacket clashes with the tie. i just dont see it. nor did much of anyone the last 2 times i posted this exact tie and SC together until T4 said he saw it that way. and again, from further back i doubt that would have been noticed.

    thus, while i am not saying that he is wrong, i am saying that these points are not that major imo, and do not imo, take this fit out of the realm of good taste. and certainly not into the realm of why would you even think to post that.

    now, i do not have any hippie-dippie attitude and i was not saying everyones is entitled to their own opinion... i was saying, all you said was its ugly, and i think you are wrong. its ugly and i like it are of the same ilk of statement. i still think its not ugly. and as to learning, the next person who even insinuates that i have no interest in learning i will PM a bitch slap to their face so hard they will be walking sideways for a week. if i may say so, i think i have learned plenty. i have vastly improved and i consider the feedback i am given here very strongly, and more than many, imo.

    this thread is not dying. its nothing like WAYWRN. i think for the vast majority this thread has kept its integrity, and continues to be a source of learning for many.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  9. emptym

    emptym Senior member Moderator

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    I agree w/ T4 that the wool tie doesn't pair well w/ the poplin shirt or the jacket. I wouldn't call it ugly, but I would call it in poor taste. It is subtle, but it's kind of a rookie mistake imho. And I make plenty of similar ones.

    A few times I've seen pics here of people wearing fuzzy wool ties w/ shirts or jackets that don't have texture and have wanted to make a comment but have refrained. The jacket has to be flannel or tweed imo. Maybe velvet or corduroy. But maybe not. I don't own a cord jacket, but I have a velvet one. Don't think I've ever worn a wool tie w/ it, even though it's a fall/winter piece that should go w/ wool ties, theoretically. I can't think of what kind of shirts, other than oxfords, would go well with them... Maybe a heavy twill, which I don't own. Certainly not everyone can or should own shirts in every fabric and color. But a white OCBD is in the top 5-10 imo. Not sure a white ocbd would go well w/ that tie or jacket though... The jacket looks like it'd be nice w/ a lightweight cotton-linen blend shirt w/ a softer collar. But maybe I'm crazy.

    I do like the jacket's pattern. What kind of fabric is it made of?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
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  10. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    good info, thanks m.

    the jacket is all wool. and i think it looks quite nice with end on end and chambrays. and i agree, an OCBD is not the shirt for this jacket.

    also, i am pretty sure i have cotton shirts that are not oxford, but still have texture. just not this one. :)
     
  11. emptym

    emptym Senior member Moderator

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    I was thinking end on end or chambray could be good.

    Wool comes in all kinds of weights and weaves though. Is this as lightweight and finely woven as it appears? Looks very spring/summer.

    Also, for some reason, I just don't like ties in a herringbone pattern. Maybe it's because I like it so much in tweed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Stitch, even if you dismiss being too monochromatic as a problem, you don't seem to understand the why the white shirt is a problem. I pointed it out without further explication because the issue has been discussed in the past and you've been there for those discussions. White shirts are on the most formal end of the business formal spectrum--particularly ones with spread collars. You've paired it with a tweed-like odd jacket, which needless to say, is very casual. Thus you've made the error of mismatching items that belong in separate contexts. It is indeed a rookie mistake.
     
  13. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    yes wool certainly does come in a great many variations. sorry, i misunderstood your question. it is on the more lightweight side of things, but for me the colors and feel are decidedly more wintery, and i dont think its so light that it has to be summery.

    as to texture, im not sure how best to explain, but here is a macro-ish shot of the fabric from the last time i wore it. maybe it will give an answer to the type of fabric

    [​IMG]

    as to herringbone, i love herringbone ties. love em. some of my favorite ties are herringbone. agree to disagree on that one i guess. :)


    i know what you mean, and i know that many times it has been stated that white is so formal it essentially should only be worn naked because nothing is quite as formal as a white shirt. i keed i keed, a slight exaggeration. however, the jacket is decidedly not tweed, it is woven and even pretty flat, and the texture i think goes pretty well with the shirt, it is really only the tie i feel that would be out of context in texture, and i dont think its all that egregious.

    so, do i agree that the tie is not the exact correct context for the SC/shirt, yes i see that now. but i still think its not horrible. certainly not ugly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  14. sugarbutch

    sugarbutch Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I generally agree that more casual combinations look better with blue shirts, etc., but this blanket prohibition on white shirts is nonsense. At one point, "shirt" might reasonably have been synonymous with "white shirt." One might prefer a blue shirt, but a white shirt is not incorrect or inherently in bad taste. This is some groupthink nonsense.

    As for the spread collar vs. the button-down, I'm calling bullshit. If a spread collar is more flattering to the wearer, then he should wear that. Or, as in my case, if he just doesn't like button-down collars, no big deal. If there's room in the canon for button-downs with conservative suits, then there's room for a spread collar with an odd jacket.

    Stitchy, if the jacket is in fact a smooth worsted, the tie may be a bit too rustic to go with it. I still like this combo better than with the striped shirt, though.
     
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  15. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    i would hope so, it was your idea. :)

    as to the jacket, the pic above is a pretty good representation. i think its slightly textured worsted, if that is even a thing, idrk what to call it. but as i said, while i agree the tie may be tad out of context, its not all that bad.

    lastly, i just saw this on FB, and given the goings on here and in WAYWRN lately, i LOL'ed. i hope everyone can enjoy a little humor at this later hour.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. emptym

    emptym Senior member Moderator

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    Thanks for the fabric close-up, IS. I agree that it does have some texture, but still not enough for that tie. I think part of the reason T4 and MF aren't fans of it is that the pattern is usually found on tweed.

    I like white shirts more than Foo or Manton, but I'm not sure Foo was saying all of this. Seems like he only said a white, finely woven, spread-collar shirt is really formal and thus very tough, if not impossible, to pair w/ sport coats.

    Take anything out of that combination, and it wasn't what he's saying. So when you say "a white shirt is not incorrect or inherently in bad taste," I think he'd agree with that. Same goes for the spread vs. BD point. Of course, Foo is the king of categorical statements, so you may be right.

    Imo, a buttondown can be worn with suits, but I'm not sure all buttondowns can be worn with all suits. Certainly not all spreads can be worn with all sport coats. Texture, color, and collar structure (hard/soft, rolled or sharp edges, ) matter too imo. Stitch's shirt was on the formal end in all aspects. It's a great shirt, but I think such white, finely-woven, sharp spread collared shirts would not go well with any sport coat--except maybe a navy blazer, (that was also paired with gray wool pants and black or oxblood shoes) or a stroller (for Sator). Fwiw, I wear spread collar shirts w/ sport coats all the time, but only ones with very soft collars. And (like Doc H) I wear white ocbd's w/ sport coats frequently. Wore one yesterday.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  17. ColdEyedPugilist

    ColdEyedPugilist Senior member

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    Last day of work before 2 weeks back in Asia for a break.

    Experimenting with different shades of blue again...

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I've particularly enjoyed the recent dogma that the buttondown is more "country" than the spread, in that it takes what is largely an Americanism, the buttondown, and forces it on a particularly English concept ... happily ignoring the fact that English country shirts -- the sort worn with tweed -- typically have a spread.

    I have to appreciate the dilletantism required to jumble up so many disparate bits of wisdom acquired from SF.
     
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  19. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    It is not nonsense. The formality of white versus other colors when it comes to shirts is well-established. The social connotations of the terms "white collar" and "blue collar" are indicative. This is not a matter of forum groupthink--if it were, so many of you wouldn't dress in such ignorance of the principle.

    In the past, when you suppose a "shirt" would mean a "white shirt," people also would not have worn tweed jackets in the city. Go ahead and do your own historical research. I have a hard time recollecting examples of well-dressed men making a habit of wearing white shirts with tweed or other odd jackets.


    You are conflating two competing metrics: what is flattering, and what is contextually sensible. There is nothing wrong with spread collars worn with odd jackets, in and of itself. But a white shirt worn with an odd jacket is already mismatching items from different ends of the formality spectrum. Since a spread collar is already more formal than a buttondown or point collar, it is only adding insult to injury. Extra-wrong, in other words.

    Suits can be dressed down easier than odd jackets can be dressed up. There are casual suits, but no such thing as a business formal odd jacket. So your reasoning that you can mix and match freely because suits can be worn with more casual shirts doesn't work.

    At the end of the day, this is not complicated. You don't even need to know "rules." You could figure all this out just be understanding the nature of the things you're wearing. Stitch's jacket is a casual odd jacket. It is rough in texture, mimicking the look of tweed. A dressy white shirt is an awkward contrast because it fails to pick up on the theme set by the jacket. The result is a confused whole. For those who understand what they are looking at, yes, it is ugly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  20. in stitches

    in stitches Senior member Moderator

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    :plain:

    it is not rough. it is textured, yet smooth. it is not ugly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013

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