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white tie with DJ

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Allen, Apr 18, 2011.

  1. Will C.

    Will C. Well-Known Member

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    I just scanned over this thread again and realised what I'd missed. Reagan speechwriter faults Obama for lack of sartorial savoir-faire in the well-precedented white tie / DJ combo, while interpreting Bush as an example of old-money nonchalance with regard to clothes (he's a 'rugged outdoorsman' just like Prince Phillip, with a proper Ivy League indifference to fashion). Obama is the arriviste, and Bush is the preppie who can't be bothered with elegance because he knows it so well. And the Reagan speechwriter had no ulterior motives in presenting this view, none at all. [​IMG]
     
  2. Manton

    Manton Well-Known Member

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    I just scanned over this thread again and realised what I'd missed. Reagan speechwriter faults Obama for lack of sartorial savoir-faire in the well-precedented white tie / DJ combo, while interpreting Bush as an example of old-money nonchalance with regard to clothes (he's a 'rugged outdoorsman' just like Prince Phillip, with a proper Ivy League indifference to fashion). Obama is the arriviste, and Bush is the preppie who can't be bothered with elegance because he knows it so well. And the Reagan speechwriter had no ulterior motives in presenting this view, none at all. [​IMG]

    Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.
     
  3. Will C.

    Will C. Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about.

    Ok. [​IMG]
     
  4. Manton

    Manton Well-Known Member

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  5. clubman

    clubman Well-Known Member

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    Well, Nick, when you lament that your work "will never meet with much US approval (even acknowledgement of its existence)" mightn't the fact that your work is Anglocentric to point of self-parody contribute in some small measure to this state of affairs?

    Nonetheless, I did enjoy both your books greatly.


    Hee hee! They are all meant to be in the category of humour! The first one derived from an occasion when I was slyly typing out my ideal wardrode (with notes), and my Good Lady, passing by, snarked "You should publish that!". I thought : "That's a thought!" and sent the draft to an agent who, (amazingly), liked it and he went on to sell the idea to a publisher, which has gone on to publish Book II and is going on tp publish the forthcoming Book III. It is true that they are Anglocentric; but then, I am British - and there we are! I am very pleased that you liked the books. they represent my ideas on things and, without fear or favour, state a case for passing things.
     
  6. clubman

    clubman Well-Known Member

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    Manton, or anybody with a knowledge of recent sartorial history, when did the dread notch-lapel DJ resurface? I get the sense it's been back for quite a while now. For instance, a book put out by Esquire entitled Good Grooming for Men in 1969 cites the notch lapel as being appropriate for a DJ. They even having a drawing of one. However, the other particulars are rather cringe-worthy, e.g., flapped hacking pockets! Amy Vanderbildt in a 1967 edition of her handbook of etiquette cites the notch lapel as being correct for a DJ, but I have the sense she may have been a little dim on the nice distinction betwee a notch and peak lapel.
    There's a picture of Jack Warner in a step lapel DJ/tux and black tie with white vest here (Oscar night for My Fair Lady, in 1964) : http://www.gonemovies.com/www/MyWebF...LadyCukor2.jpg Part of the confusion arises from the use of 'notch' lapel and 'step' lapel. As I have said before, a notch lapel is, strictly, any lapel with a slit, distinguishing it from a shawl lapel. The Harrison Court Guides make this reasonably clear.
     
  7. Kent Wang

    Kent Wang Well-Known Member

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    I just scanned over this thread again and realised what I'd missed. Reagan speechwriter faults Obama for lack of sartorial savoir-faire in the well-precedented white tie / DJ combo, while interpreting Bush as an example of old-money nonchalance with regard to clothes (he's a 'rugged outdoorsman' just like Prince Phillip, with a proper Ivy League indifference to fashion). Obama is the arriviste, and Bush is the preppie who can't be bothered with elegance because he knows it so well. And the Reagan speechwriter had no ulterior motives in presenting this view, none at all. [​IMG]
    You read too much into this.
     
  8. JLibourel

    JLibourel Well-Known Member

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    Hee hee! They are all meant to be in the category of humour! The first one derived from an occasion when I was slyly typing out my ideal wardrode (with notes), and my Good Lady, passing by, snarked "You should publish that!". I thought : "That's a thought!" and sent the draft to an agent who, (amazingly), liked it and he went on to sell the idea to a publisher, which has gone on to publish Book II and is going on tp publish the forthcoming Book III. It is true that they are Anglocentric; but then, I am British - and there we are! I am very pleased that you liked the books. they represent my ideas on things and, without fear or favour, state a case for passing things.

    What is Book III going to be about? Book II has already started me smoking my pipes more often!
     
  9. clubman

    clubman Well-Known Member

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    What is Book III going to be about? Book II has already started me smoking my pipes more often!

    Book III is sub-titled "A Short Guide To The Sporting Life" and is about Town and country sports: drinking; shootin', huntin', fishin', hawkin', hackin'; cards; dancing; cheese-rolling; hurling; rose-growing and smelilng - and even a little bit about the first steam passenger railway: another oddball book, for oddballs! Just get aboard and enjoy the ride!!!!!!
     
  10. JLibourel

    JLibourel Well-Known Member

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    ^Are you going to include ferreting? I suspect at least as many Britons engage in that pursuit as they do hawking, which of course is slightly different from falconry, the latter being practiced by a falconer, the former by an austringer.

    (And I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first time the word "austringer" has been used in the history of SF!)
     
  11. clubman

    clubman Well-Known Member

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    ^Are you going to include ferreting? I suspect at least as many Britons engage in that pursuit as they do hawking, which of course is slightly different from falconry, the latter being practiced by a falconer, the former by an austringer. (And I wouldn't be surprised if this is the first time the word "austringer" has been used in the history of SF!)
    Strictly, an austringer is one who trains and flies specifically goshawks. The book chapter is called 'falconry'; the distinctions between falconry and hawking are blurred by the use of terms such as The Hawk Board and The Falconry Trust, both of which cover hawks and falcons: just as the distinction is blurred between 'beer' and 'ale'. Real pedantry on this subject would mean that we would call only a female peregrine a 'falcon' and the male a 'tercel'. Statute uses the term 'falconry'. Unlike other firms of hunting it is even protected by UNESCO and a peregrine in the stoop is the fastest creature on earth, reaching up to 200 mph. Sorry to say, ferrets aren't in this book but there is a plate of the prototype road model of the 1931 8 litre Bentley (owned by Jack Buchanan), of which only 100 were made, before Bentley nearly went bust and was saved by RR. Althogether, the three books should make a nice compendium: "Storey's Miscellanie of Ye Olde Englande: Designed For the Delight, Diversion and Delectation of Natives and the Annoyance of Ye Former Colonials, Foreigners and Other Aliens. Price: sixpence halfpenny s. 6.1/2 and Not Yet Remaindered."
     
  12. Ianiceman

    Ianiceman Well-Known Member

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    Pres Obama at White house press ball in black tie tonight, but deduct points for notch lapels!
     
  13. gdl203

    gdl203 Well-Known Member

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    That's a pretty good reason, actually.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Redwoood

    Redwoood Well-Known Member

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    Looking good. I bet one of you was cold while the other was too hot all evening [​IMG] Gatsby party, eh? Sounds like that could be loads of fun.
     
  15. JLibourel

    JLibourel Well-Known Member

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    Strictly, an austringer is one who trains and flies specifically goshawks. The book chapter is called 'falconry'; the distinctions between falconry and hawking are blurred by the use of terms such as The Hawk Board and The Falconry Trust, both of which cover hawks and falcons: just as the distinction is blurred between 'beer' and 'ale'. Real pedantry on this subject would mean that we would call only a female peregrine a 'falcon' and the male a 'tercel'. Statute uses the term 'falconry'. Unlike other firms of hunting it is even protected by UNESCO and a peregrine in the stoop is the fastest creature on earth, reaching up to 200 mph.

    How common are goshawks in Great Britain? In my part of the country (Southern California) they are only to be found, I believe, in high mountain forests. At least the only two times I have seen them has been at 9,000+ feet, once on Mt. San Jacinto and another time on the south slope of Mt. Baden-Powell. It is claimed they only winter here, but when I saw them it was late summer or early autumn.

    Their smaller, fiercer and strictly American cousin the Cooper's hawk is a common bird where I live. I have seen them in my garden on occasion. Ospreys and Peregrine falcons, once on the verge of extinction thanks to DDT, are now quite common. A few months ago I heard and saw a Peregrine falcon calling from a eucalyptus tree bordering the Marine Stadium near my home.
     
  16. clubman

    clubman Well-Known Member

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    How common are goshawks in Great Britain? In my part of the country (Southern California) they are only to be found, I believe, in high mountain forests. At least the only two times I have seen them has been at 9,000+ feet, once on Mt. San Jacinto and another time on the south slope of Mt. Baden-Powell. It is claimed they only winter here, but when I saw them it was late summer or early autumn. Their smaller, fiercer and strictly American cousin the Cooper's hawk is a common bird where I live. I have seen them in my garden on occasion. Ospreys and Peregrine falcons, once on the verge of extinction thanks to DDT, are now quite common. A few months ago I heard and saw a Peregrine falcon calling from a eucalyptus tree bordering the Marine Stadium near my home.
    I think that wild goshawks are quite rare. Ospreys and peregrines - indeed many raptors - were shot as pests to game but now they are protected and making a comeback. Those used for sport in are bred in captivity and it is estimated that there are 25,000 such birds and 2,000 breeders in the UK alone. There is a licensing system to permit the taking of specific birds from the wild but it has not been exercised for a long time and the only wild raptors that can be taken are those that have been injured, to enable them to be treated and then released. They are majestic birds. I see a pair of longwings here (not sure exactly what they are as they are so fast) but they sometimes take doves off a roof at the back and, when they do, there is just a rush of air, a blur and a puff of feathers left behind! Talking of comebacks - the wild chough - once so abundant on the cliffs of Cornwall and the crest of the arms of the Duchy - completely disappeared but now they are back (possibly landing from Brittany or Ireland) and breeding successfully each year, which is tremendous.
     
  17. Gent

    Gent Well-Known Member

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    Not sure. I don't recall seeing it.

    However, if you look at (say) Charles Dana Gibson drawings, everyone has a black vest. Then After about 1900 it's mostly white and after WWI it's all white.


    Oddly enough, the black vest with tailcoat is still alive in unexpected parts of Europe. Apparently this is related to those countries whose universities have strong German influences. I don't know the exact sphere of influence, but at least the Nordic Countries. It's only used in the daytime, striking as it might seem, and in very specific academic occasions, such as oral defenses of doctoral dissertations. After 6 PM it's white vest with tails for formal events. Morning dress co-exists for regular daytime formal events such as weddings, but for specific academic events, it's evening dress with black waistcoat.

    Just thought I'd share.
     
  18. clubman

    clubman Well-Known Member

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    Oddly enough, the black vest with tailcoat is still alive in unexpected parts of Europe. Apparently this is related to those countries whose universities have strong German influences. I don't know the exact sphere of influence, but at least the Nordic Countries. It's only used in the daytime, striking as it might seem, and in very specific academic occasions, such as oral defenses of doctoral dissertations. After 6 PM it's white vest with tails for formal events. Morning dress co-exists for regular daytime formal events such as weddings, but for specific academic events, it's evening dress with black waistcoat.

    Just thought I'd share.


    Academic and diplomatic practices are separate from general practice. In the UK the black vest with a dress coat was a winter time and Court mourning garment. The Little Dook had one by Scholte, as already mentioned in this thread, made long after 1900.
     
  19. Testudo_Aubreii

    Testudo_Aubreii Well-Known Member

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    [the] stylish have to a man all shunned [the step lapel DJ].

    Not a real-life man, so point taken; but, from Matt S's Suits of James Bond blog:

    [​IMG]
     
  20. clubman

    clubman Well-Known Member

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    Sir John Mills is another exception that proves the general rule. [​IMG]
     

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