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white tie with DJ

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Allen, Apr 18, 2011.

  1. ctp120

    ctp120 Senior member

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    Truth be told, a less cantankerous, nonchalant Manton is probably taking the higher road here, but as a spectator, I'm longing for the old irascible poster circa 2004. The potential rhetorical fireworks in the duel stirring have [​IMG] promise.
     
  2. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    Truth be told, a less cantankerous, nonchalant Manton is probably taking the higher road here, but as a spectator, I'm longing for the old irascible poster circa 2004. The potential rhetorical fireworks in the duel stirring have [​IMG] promise.

    Stop stirring.
     
  3. ctp120

    ctp120 Senior member

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    Stop stirring.
    To be fair: quit playing coy; you've done the lion's share. And I wasn't seriously trying to incite something. I meant what I said about the high road.
     
  4. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    To be fair: quit playing coy; you've done the lion's share. And I wasn't seriously trying to incite something. I meant what I said about the high road.

    I guess that it is interesting provoking reactions [​IMG] ; even as a small kid I once threw stones at a gaggle of geese, which then turned on me and I had to run like billy-o.
     
  5. Bounder

    Bounder Senior member

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    I guess that it is interesting provoking reactions [​IMG] ; even as a small kid I once threw stones at a gaggle of geese, which then turned on me and I had to run like billy-o.
    This time you are throwing stones at a hornet's nest. I suspect you took umbrage at Manton's aside about Prince Philip. Fair enough, I suppose. As so often, it is a question of whose ox is being gored. Having said that, I will not have you two fighting. You are both leading experts and published authors. You are uniquely situated to have some extremely interesting discussions which I -- and possibly even the rest of the forum, not that that matters -- will enjoy immensely. We are not going to sabotage them before they get started. So say "sorry", shake hands and get on with it!
    As for the white/black tie with DJ problem: in the 21st century, it seems questionable to me to declare it 'incorrect' to wear a white bow with DJ. If it was accepted for a good half-century before the 1920s, it seems nothing more than a matter of declaring your historical allegiances. One man has Edwardian taste, the next man has mid-century taste.
    Oh, goody! I can break out my frock coat and knee breeches. No, wait! Even better! My toga! They really look quite dignified, when you think about it.
     
  6. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    This time you are throwing stones at a hornet's nest.

    I suspect you took umbrage at Manton's aside about Prince Philip. Fair enough, I suppose. As so often, it is a question of whose ox is being gored.

    Having said that, I will not have you two fighting. You are both leading experts and published authors. You are uniquely situated to have some extremely interesting discussions which I -- and possibly even the rest of the forum, not that that matters -- will enjoy immensely. We are not going to sabotage them before they get started. So say "sorry", shake hands and get on with it!



    Oh, goody! I can break out my frock coat and knee breeches. No, wait! Even better! My toga! They really look quite dignified, when you think about it.


    I tend to agree. I already said "Pax". Anyway, I don't want to prejudice the possibility of a future joint publication.
     
  7. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I wasn't trying to disparage PP, whom I have nothing against. I'm sure he is a fine husband, though from what I have read he was not a great father. I usually side with him when leftist cranks get all upset over one of his comments. But he's not really a style icon. And to say that a good chunk of the English public finds him embarassing is just a fact. Maybe they shouldn't but they do.
     
  8. Bounder

    Bounder Senior member

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    I wasn't trying to disparage PP, whom I have nothing against. I'm sure he is a fine husband, though from what I have read he was not a great father. I usually side with him when leftist cranks get all upset over one of his comments. But he's not really a style icon. And to say that a good chunk of the English public finds him embarassing is just a fact. Maybe they shouldn't but they do.
    Well, you may be correct. But you can appreciate how such a comment, even if correct, might ruffle the feathers of someone from the UK, just as making a similar comment about George Bush might ruffle some feathers in the U.S.. Sartorial criticism is fair game, I suppose, and I'm sure that Clubman would be the first to admit that Prince Charles is a better dresser than his father.
     
  9. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Clubman is not English, I don't think.

    Anyway, citing Phillip as an example of correct dress makes about as much sense as citing GWB. Niether is a style icon and neither seems to care about it that much. And in GWB's case it's not that he's a hick. He's not. He's from an old WASP family that understands tradition. When GWB had to, he knew how to do formal wear correctly. He just hated to do it and tried to avoid it at every turn.
     
  10. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    Clubman is not English, I don't think.

    Anyway, citing Phillip as an example of correct dress makes about as much sense as citing GWB. Niether is a style icon and neither seems to care about it that much. And in GWB's case it's not that he's a hick. He's not. He's from an old WASP family that understands tradition. When GWB had to, he knew how to do formal wear correctly. He just hated to do it and tried to avoid it at every turn.


    I suppose that I am 7/8ths Cornish and 1/8th English but the 1/8th gives me my surname. As for the rest, on GWB and 'Phil The Greek': just agree to differ.
     
  11. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    FWIW, PP and GWB actually like each other. They are both outdoorsy, sporty, "macho" types. I know for a fact that GWB finds the whole subject of fashion contemptible and I would not be surprised of PP does too.
     
  12. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    FWIW, PP and GWB actually like each other. They are both outdoorsy, sporty, "macho" types. I know for a fact that GWB finds the whole subject of fashion contemptible and I would not be surprised of PP does too.

    Phil has got my Book I because the Eccentric Club (of which he is Patron) gave him a copy.
     
  13. Will C.

    Will C. Senior member

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    Oh, goody! I can break out my frock coat and knee breeches. No, wait! Even better! My toga! They really look quite dignified, when you think about it.
    Very insightful. However, frock coats were not worn with knee breeches.
     
  14. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    Very insightful. However, frock coats were not worn with knee breeches.
    Clerical frock coats were and, as for the rest, I am not entirely sure that they never were but the advent of the frock coat coincided with the introduction of pantaloons and overalls, so generally they were not.
     
  15. JLibourel

    JLibourel Senior member

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    Phew! That little effort seems to have sold one more book on amazon.com. The truth is that, whatever I say, here or in print, it will never meet with much US approval (even acknowledgement of its exisence, pace Will), because you have your own Holy Grails: the Flusser books (backed-up and reinforced by the likes of schmozers such as Cromps and his 'Permanent Style' WETFTI) and Manton's (of course) - and what marketing manager would dream of letting the guy in from the Other Firm? Sad but true. Shut him out and shut him up. Side-line him. Thank whatever gods may be that I am able to say (as I do), that I have done with flabby handshakes and false smiles; unfelt laughs, at unfunny jokes; in company that I'd rather avoid, at corporate functions, frequented by eager geeks, gawks and spooks in ill-fitting, shiny suits. These days; most days, I am virtually naked and all the better for it. White tie; black tie - all gorn the way of all flesh for me: for me now the scent and sound of the crashing South Atlantic Ocean and a bloody great papaya, sprinkled with fresh ginger, for breakie!

    'Ta' (a ghastly term) and 'Cheers' (an even ghastlier), Guys!


    Well, Nick, when you lament that your work "will never meet with much US approval (even acknowledgement of its existence)" mightn't the fact that your work is Anglocentric to point of self-parody contribute in some small measure to this state of affairs?

    Nonetheless, I did enjoy both your books greatly.
     
  16. JLibourel

    JLibourel Senior member

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    Manton, or anybody with a knowledge of recent sartorial history, when did the dread notch-lapel DJ resurface? I get the sense it's been back for quite a while now. For instance, a book put out by Esquire entitled Good Grooming for Men in 1969 cites the notch lapel as being appropriate for a DJ. They even having a drawing of one. However, the other particulars are rather cringe-worthy, e.g., flapped hacking pockets!

    Amy Vanderbildt in a 1967 edition of her handbook of etiquette cites the notch lapel as being correct for a DJ, but I have the sense she may have been a little dim on the nice distinction betwee a notch and peak lapel.
     
  17. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I started becoming aware of the DJ in the mid '80s and the notch was around. This was California so maybe we were more ignorant than most. I've never known a world without it. At an even in Manhattan on Wednesday, I saw tons of them.
     
  18. eg1

    eg1 Senior member

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    For me, a white tie is always tainted in my youthful memory from the time my mother bought me (and both my younger brothers) infelicitously large, white velvet clip-ons in the deepest, darkest early 70s ... [​IMG]

    I actually have all the gear for white tie except an actual tailcoat. I have had occasion to wear it about half a dozen times over more than 20 years. Rented the tails each time. Felt like a scrounge but I knew that buying was a waste of money.

    I should be so lucky. I have not been invited to even one black tie event, let alone numerous white tie events, in my entire life.

    Such is the fate of the provincial, eh? [​IMG]
     
  19. Bounder

    Bounder Senior member

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    Very insightful. However, frock coats were not worn with knee breeches.
    Fine. I guess it will have to be the toga then. Does anyone know what shoes are appropriate? I was thinking #8 shell.
     
  20. Will C.

    Will C. Senior member

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    Fine. I guess it will have to be the toga then. Does anyone know what shoes are appropriate? I was thinking #8 shell.
    Woven-leather sandals?... whatever suits you best.
     

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