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white tie with DJ

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Allen, Apr 18, 2011.

  1. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Well I have done my part, I have worn white tie several times but I bet I never will have occasion to again. I think it's a dead form at this point.
     
  2. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    I cannot help but find that Manton is correct. I mean, you can't wear a white tie with, ahh, black tie.[​IMG]

    But really, things are confusing enough as it is. "Black tie" is now even the recognized dress code. It is hard enough to get people to dress in some vague approximation of black tie as it is without counter-intuitive exceptions.

    You might have gotten away with this once-upon-a-time when there was a wider understanding of norms and when events and venues dictated dress codes rather than invitations. Sadly, nowadays it is different. If the invitation specifies black tie, you just can't show up in a DJ and a white tie. You would be actively flaunting your host's expectations. And certainly, in the extremely unlikely event that you were to recieve an invitation specifying white tie, you can't wear a DJ and a white tie. The Queen would not be amused.


    This post crossed with my last post, where I (inadvertently) address your main point: as a matter of fact, the introduction of the DJ to 'Bertie' by Lord Dupplin was at an evening event (on the royal yacht) which, strictly, required a dress coat. Therefore, the transatlantic journey of the DJ-tux began with this event (details elsewhere!): in short, with a white tie (then outrageously) worn with a new-fangled DJ.
     
  3. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    Well I have done my part, I have worn white tie several times but I bet I never will have occasion to again. I think it's a dead form at this point.

    Yes, nearly agreed; although there will be, for a time, the continuation of the Caledonian and Oban Balls, which prescribe dress coats (the Caledonian Ball presided over, ironically, by a committee which includes the current Lord Dupplin). There are also groups that organize small events at which they all wear dress coats and ball gowns. The trouble with most of them is that the gals are in the dress coats and the guys are in the ball gowns. [​IMG]
     
  4. mjphillips

    mjphillips Senior member

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    Well I have done my part, I have worn white tie several times but I bet I never will have occasion to again. I think it's a dead form at this point.
    Definitely fading but dead is a stretch. You still see it at southern weddings and deb balls. Most guys don't like to wear it though for the same reason most people don't like tuxedos - they rent them, and rentals are crap. Edited to add: I do think Obama missed a chance to make a sartorial statement though - if your own inauguration ball isn't an occasion for white tie I don't know what is. Apparently LBJ was the 1st president to wear a business suit instead of a morning coat for the actual inauguration.
     
  5. JLibourel

    JLibourel Senior member

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    ^Yes, full-fig white tie ensembles are used sometimes as wedding attire. One notable case would be Scott Peterson of Scott & Laci infamy. He wore full evening attire to his wedding with the hapless Laci. In the published photo in the tabloids, it appeared to be broad daylight.

    In the debate between ancient precedent vs. current usage, where, then, does the despised notch-lapel DJ/tuxedo fit? It has both the sanction of precedent, notch lapel DJs having been worn in the pre-WWI era, and no one can deny their current popularity.

    I mean, Manton, how can you state that the practice of wearing white ties with a dinner jacket has been rendered inappropriate by current practice, yet inveigh, as you do, against the notch lapel, which is supported both by precedent and most emphatically in current practice.

    That said, I personally would never acquire a notch-lapel DJ--in the unlikely event I should ever have occasion to wear a DJ--but I cannot in confidence tell somebody that it is "bad form" or sartorially incorrect.
     
  6. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    ^Yes, full-fig white tie ensembles are used sometimes as wedding attire. One notable case would be Scott Peterson of Scott & Laci infamy. He wore full evening attire to his wedding with the hapless Laci. In the published photo in the tabloids, it appeared to be broad daylight. In the debate between ancient precedent vs. current usage, where, then, does the despised notch-lapel DJ/tuxedo fit? It has both the sanction of precedent, notch lapel DJs having been worn in the pre-WWI era, and no one can deny their current popularity. I mean, Manton, how can you state that the practice of wearing white ties with a dinner jacket has been rendered inappropriate by current practice, yet inveigh, as you do, against the notch lapel, which is supported both by precedent and most emphatically in current practice. That said, I personally would never acquire a notch-lapel DJ--in the unlikely event I should ever have occasion to wear a DJ--but I cannot in confidence tell somebody that it is "bad form" or sartorially incorrect.
    Phew! That little effort seems to have sold one more book on amazon.com. The truth is that, whatever I say, here or in print, it will never meet with much US approval (even acknowledgement of its exisence, pace Will), because you have your own Holy Grails: the Flusser books (backed-up and reinforced by the likes of schmozers such as Cromps and his 'Permanent Style' WETFTI) and Manton's (of course) - and what marketing manager would dream of letting the guy in from the Other Firm? Sad but true. Shut him out and shut him up. Side-line him. Thank whatever gods may be that I am able to say (as I do), that I have done with flabby handshakes and false smiles; unfelt laughs, at unfunny jokes; in company that I'd rather avoid, at corporate functions, frequented by eager geeks, gawks and spooks in ill-fitting, shiny suits. These days; most days, I am virtually naked and all the better for it. White tie; black tie - all gorn the way of all flesh for me: for me now the scent and sound of the crashing South Atlantic Ocean and a bloody great papaya, sprinkled with fresh ginger, for breakie! 'Ta' (a ghastly term) and 'Cheers' (an even ghastlier), Guys!
     
  7. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I mean, Manton, how can you state that the practice of wearing white ties with a dinner jacket has been rendered inappropriate by current practice, yet inveigh, as you do, against the notch lapel, which is supported both by precedent and most emphatically in current practice.

    Because it does not follow that because something was correct at one time, therefore it must be correct for all time. White tie with DJ is at least 100 years passe.

    I don't believe in all this vaunted support for the notch DJ. All we have, it seems to me, are some American dry goods catalogues and people like Prince Phillip, who is widely regarded as ... well, as kind of an embarassment to England. It's a fact that SR, the upper orders, and the cadre of the stylish have, since the '20s, worn black tie only as proscribed in the ways you say I am wrong for catalogueing.

    As for current practice, yeah, RTW has ensured that it will be ubiquitous until the DJ finally dies. I guess that makes it correct in that it's much less of a faux pas than it was say 40 or 50 years ago. It's probably not a faux pas at all any more in the strict sense. But anyone who cares about style would still shun it--or at a minimum they would want to know that they stylish have to a man all shunned it.

    I feel like it's 2004 all over again, so let me repeat for the 10,000th time, wear whatever you want. But let's be honest with ourselves and not try to pretend that the notch DJ was all over Belgravia and the Upper East Side in the mid 20th century.
     
  8. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    Because it does not follow that because something was correct at one time, therefore it must be correct for all time. White tie with DJ is at least 100 years passe. I don't believe in all this vaunted support for the notch DJ. All we have, it seems to me, are some American dry goods catalogues and people like Prince Phillip, who is widely regarded as ... well, as kind of an embarassment to England. It's a fact that SR, the upper orders, and the cadre of the stylish have, since the '20s, worn black tie only as proscribed in the ways you say I am wrong for catalogueing. As for current practice, yeah, RTW has ensured that it will be ubiquitous until the DJ finally dies. I guess that makes it correct in that it's much less of a faux pas than it was say 40 or 50 years ago. It's probably not a faux pas at all any more in the strict sense. But anyone who cares about style would still shun it--or at a minimum they would want to know that they stylish have to a man all shunned it. I feel like it's 2004 all over again, so let me repeat for the 10,000th time, wear whatever you want. But let's be honest with ourselves and not try to pretend that the notch DJ was all over Belgravia and the Upper East Side in the mid 20th century.
    The problem with describing what is now 'correct' is that hardly anybody out there knows or cares and it is an exercise in counting angels on pinheads. The step lapel DJ-tux has been a fairly rare item (a 'notch' is, strictly, speaking any lapel 'slit'); although it seems to be gaining ground. It was illustrated in the early 20th Century as an option. its re-emergence is the evolution which we sometimes hear about. The Prince Philip, The Duke of Edinburgh is, in many Briton's eyes a national treasure. He is that rare thing: a man who speaks out and a man who has unfaillingly given his life to supporting The Queen. What have you got? Stuttering, self-aggrandizing fools like George W Bush. Well, as George W might well say: stufflicate you.
     
  9. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    The Prince Philip, The Duke of Edinburgh is, in many Briton's eyes a national treasure. He is that rare thing: a man who speaks out and a man who has unfaillingly given his life to supporting The Queen. What have you got? Stuttering, self-aggrandizing fools like George W Bush. Well, stufflicate you.

    yeah, great.
     
  10. pvrhye

    pvrhye Senior member

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    I'd think the ease of finding a white satin bow-tie gives a little credit to the idea that black bowtie love isn't so monolithic.

    Then again, "black tie" in a white tie does sound contradictory.
     
  11. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    yeah, great.
    That's raht, bahy! I think that there is a touch of envy there because most Americans go absolutely nuts for the royal family and virtually adopted the Little Dook as a kind of surrogate sovereign.
     
  12. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    I'd think the ease of finding a white satin bow-tie gives a little credit to the idea that black bowtie love isn't so monolithic.

    Then again, "black tie" in a white tie does sound contradictory.


    'Black tie' is just another way of saying 'dinner jacket'. But the agonizing over this is beyond belief! As I say, most people couldn't give a rat's backside.
     
  13. Digmenow

    Digmenow Senior member

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    I'm actually going to wear my tux with a white bow and white waistcoat next week [​IMG] [​IMG]
    From "The Way We Were" at the 1:00 mark. Can't be sure about the waistcoat but it looks like there's a white one in there.
    IMPORTANT NOTICE: No media files are hosted on these forums. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website. We can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. If the video does not play, wait a minute or try again later. I AGREE

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  14. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    That's raht, bahy! I think that there is a touch of envy there because most Americans go absolutely nuts for the royal family and virtually adopted the Little Dook as a kind of surrogate sovereign.

    yeah, that's me
     
  15. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    yeah, that's me

    Oh, I thought that you were he of the cascading strings! [​IMG]
     
  16. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Oh, I thought that you were he of the cascading strings! [​IMG]

    I really have no idea what you are talking about at this point. You seem to have done interesting research and have interesting things to say but if you just want to pick fights, you're going to have to fight with someone else. I am combative -- too much so -- but not interested this time.
     
  17. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    I really have no idea what you are talking about at this point. You seem to have done interesting research and have interesting things to say but if you just want to pick fights, you're going to have to fight with someone else. I am combative -- too much so -- but not interested this time.

    If you have no idea what I am talking about, how on earth can you suggest that I am picking a fight?

    PAX.
     
  18. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    If you have no idea what I am talking about, how on earth can you suggest that I am picking a fight?

    PAX.


    I could cite chapter and verse, is that really necessary? Anyway, if you aren't, great.
     
  19. clubman

    clubman Senior member

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    I could cite chapter and verse, is that really necessary? Anyway, if you aren't, great.

    Let's be friends instead. [​IMG]
     
  20. Will C.

    Will C. Senior member

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    When I saw William Powell in The Thin Man, I noticed that he wore a white waistcoat with his dinner jacket. His tie was black. It looked dapper and I approved. Black waistcoats with black tie are too funereal for my taste: better to wear a double-breasted DJ, or (gasp) a cummerbund, or just keep the single-breasted DJ buttoned if all else fails. Or even do as Powell did and wear a white waistcoat.

    As for the white/black tie with DJ problem: in the 21st century, it seems questionable to me to declare it 'incorrect' to wear a white bow with DJ. If it was accepted for a good half-century before the 1920s, it seems nothing more than a matter of declaring your historical allegiances. One man has Edwardian taste, the next man has mid-century taste. The next man (nearly everyone, in fact) has no idea about any of this, and looks the worse for it. By all means chide Obama for wearing a white tie only out of ignorance (and for not covering his waist), but don't chide the next man who makes an informed choice.
     

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