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Which martial art is most effective for self defense?

Discussion in 'Health & Body' started by yachtie, Jul 29, 2008.

  1. Matt

    Matt Senior member

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    I'm kind of surprised no has yet mentioned pencak silat.
    ya with its absence of head strikes and penchant for strange dancing manouveurs between attacks, it is ideal for any bar brawl.
     
  2. West24

    West24 Senior member

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    ya with its absence of head strikes and penchant for strange dancing manouveurs between attacks, it is ideal for any bar brawl.

    any good bar brawl will have atleast two 5 minute dance breaks. thats a FACT/1!!
     
  3. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    any good bar brawl will have atleast two 5 minute dance breaks. thats a FACT/1!!

    Dance certainly breaks out in the middle of a fight in any self-respecting Bollywood movie.
     
  4. King Francis

    King Francis Senior member

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    ya with its absence of head strikes and penchant for strange dancing manouveurs between attacks, it is ideal for any bar brawl.

    Um. What?

    I'm guessing you've seen a few demonstrations of kembangan, in which an individual performs his silat artistically and set to music for the purpose of aesthetic appreciation. While practicing kembangan regularly does train your sense of timing, among other skills, it is very different from actual combative silat, which is not only pared down and "unpretty" but in which every attack is meant to be followed by another until the opponent is incapacitated.

    Or maybe you're thinking of the pulut demonstrations of Malaysian silat as opposed to buah. I don't know.

    As for the supposed absence of head strikes, this is just wrong. Silat is a complete system. But the different styles, of which there are hundreds, do have different emphases: nerve strikes, throws, etc.

    Silat is not above dirty tricks to distract the opponent, and it has a penchant for found weapons. And practicioners are often most comfortable fighting in extremely close quarters in order to utilize their elbows, knees, and head. Rather ideal for the bar environment in a fight against the hypothetical drunken jackass and his friends.
     
  5. Eason

    Eason Senior member

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    Aikido is the most effective for self defense. I know basics of Aikido and It's very effective. Defense before offense, that's the key rule of Aikido.

    I'd say that's true if you train Tomiko Aikido, and you like pre-emptively wrist-grabbing people who shake your hand. Other than that...
     
  6. Spilotro

    Spilotro Senior member

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    I'm going to echo that krav maga and muay thai are probably the best. However, I have some boxing and TKD, along with other hand to hand training I received as a police cadet. I'd call myself a scrappy guy [​IMG]
     
  7. Gradstudent78

    Gradstudent78 Senior member

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    Isn't this pretty much true of any martial art?

    Generally it is, but I would say it's more so of aikido because of it's defensive nature and the non-violent philosophy often associated with it.
     
  8. Eason

    Eason Senior member

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    Don't forget that they wear skirts, and take turns being the submissive one.
     
  9. MilanoStyle

    MilanoStyle Senior member

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    Just pick one and stick with it. No matter which art you're profiecient at it, a fight outside dojo/ring would be unexpected situation and your instinct and relfex count more than the art itself. If I had to pick one, I would pick Mauy Tai, if you have time for another one then add Judo (or Aikido)
     
  10. BrettChaotix

    BrettChaotix Senior member

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    I had about 5 years of kickboxing training and then picked up Kung-Fu when my mom remarried to an instructor who was inducted into the Martial Arts Hall Of Fame (2003 Master - Chinese Arts)

    I quickly learned (in backyard sparring) that a 5'2", 130lbs man in his 40's can whip the ass of a 6'3, 190lbs teenager in about 30 seconds... and about 20 of those seconds were spent on the ground.

    I saw countless fights while working/DJing in bars over the last several years and the overwhelming majority of them wind up on the ground in a matter of seconds. Our best bouncer was a college kid who was a wrestling champ, he'd have a drunk asshole twice his size pinned to the floor before the other bouncers could even arrive to help.

    My point is - whatever martial art you decide to choose, make sure that it covers ground-fighting extensively because in a real-life fight, the odds are that's where you are going to wind up.
     
  11. MilanoStyle

    MilanoStyle Senior member

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    well .. yes and no. I have seen bar/street fights are over in one or two punches. I am thinking that if a street fight was to go on more than 5 seconds, a guy who thinks he is physically stronger than his opponent will try to close space and take his opponent down to the ground even if he does not know ground fighting--I would fight on ground because I don't want to minimize taking hits from stand up fight. I have a friend who is an armature boxer and I saw him getting into bar fight one time. He knocked out a man with 3 combination of punches, no ground fighting was needed.

    I had about 5 years of kickboxing training and then picked up Kung-Fu when my mom remarried to an instructor who was inducted into the Martial Arts Hall Of Fame (2003 Master - Chinese Arts)

    I quickly learned (in backyard sparring) that a 5'2", 130lbs man in his 40's can whip the ass of a 6'3, 190lbs teenager in about 30 seconds... and about 20 of those seconds were spent on the ground.

    I saw countless fights while working/DJing in bars over the last several years and the overwhelming majority of them wind up on the ground in a matter of seconds. Our best bouncer was a college kid who was a wrestling champ, he'd have a drunk asshole twice his size pinned to the floor before the other bouncers could even arrive to help.

    My point is - whatever martial art you decide to choose, make sure that it covers ground-fighting extensively because in a real-life fight, the odds are that's where you are going to wind up.
     
  12. jc138

    jc138 Senior member

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    I had about 5 years of kickboxing training and then picked up Kung-Fu when my mom remarried to an instructor who was inducted into the Martial Arts Hall Of Fame (2003 Master - Chinese Arts)

    I quickly learned (in backyard sparring) that a 5'2", 130lbs man in his 40's can whip the ass of a 6'3, 190lbs teenager in about 30 seconds... and about 20 of those seconds were spent on the ground.

    I saw countless fights while working/DJing in bars over the last several years and the overwhelming majority of them wind up on the ground in a matter of seconds. Our best bouncer was a college kid who was a wrestling champ, he'd have a drunk asshole twice his size pinned to the floor before the other bouncers could even arrive to help.

    My point is - whatever martial art you decide to choose, make sure that it covers ground-fighting extensively because in a real-life fight, the odds are that's where you are going to wind up.

    Makes sense to me.

    I've boxed a little and have friends who have done a bit of wrestling. Without a doubt, any of my wrestling friends would have little trouble kicking my butt. (Unless I managed to out run them -- maybe put all that road-work to use!)
     
  13. Gradstudent78

    Gradstudent78 Senior member

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    I had about 5 years of kickboxing training and then picked up Kung-Fu when my mom remarried to an instructor who was inducted into the Martial Arts Hall Of Fame (2003 Master - Chinese Arts)

    I quickly learned (in backyard sparring) that a 5'2", 130lbs man in his 40's can whip the ass of a 6'3, 190lbs teenager in about 30 seconds... and about 20 of those seconds were spent on the ground.

    I saw countless fights while working/DJing in bars over the last several years and the overwhelming majority of them wind up on the ground in a matter of seconds. Our best bouncer was a college kid who was a wrestling champ, he'd have a drunk asshole twice his size pinned to the floor before the other bouncers could even arrive to help.

    My point is - whatever martial art you decide to choose, make sure that it covers ground-fighting extensively because in a real-life fight, the odds are that's where you are going to wind up.


    You really don't want to take a fight to the ground in a self defense situation, It's a very hard position to keep track of everyone else and the last thing you want is the guys friends to come over and start kicking you. In many places it's not exactly safe either in terms of glass being on the ground or other potential dangers. It's also a pretty crappy place to be if the guy pulls a knife.

    A lot of people say most fights go to the ground but really the fights that go to the ground are those between people who don't know how to fight (typically stupid bar fights between two drunk guys), those between bouncers/cops and someone else because they typically have backup to watch their back (and their trained to take someone down to cuff them) and between a trained wrestler (ground fighter) and someone else because that's where the wrestler want to be.

    The best thing you can learn from ground fighting in terms of self defense is how to get up off of the ground if your taken there.
     
  14. odoreater

    odoreater Senior member

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    Just pick one and stick with it. No matter which art you're profiecient at it, a fight outside dojo/ring would be unexpected situation and your instinct and relfex count more than the art itself. If I had to pick one, I would pick Mauy Tai, if you have time for another one then add Judo (or Aikido)

    I don't know about this. I think there are a lot of arts out there that foster a false sense of self-confidence in people that they are going to do well in a fight, when they have trained with nothing but willing partners using techniques that wouldn't work with a resisting opponent.
     
  15. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    I don't know about this. I think there are a lot of arts out there that foster a false sense of self-confidence in people that they are going to do well in a fight, when they have trained with nothing but willing partners using techniques that wouldn't work with a resisting opponent.

    +1
     
  16. Matt

    Matt Senior member

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    Um. What? I'm guessing you've seen a few demonstrations of kembangan, in which an individual performs his silat artistically and set to music for the purpose of aesthetic appreciation. While practicing kembangan regularly does train your sense of timing, among other skills, it is very different from actual combative silat, which is not only pared down and "unpretty" but in which every attack is meant to be followed by another until the opponent is incapacitated. Or maybe you're thinking of the pulut demonstrations of Malaysian silat as opposed to buah. I don't know. As for the supposed absence of head strikes, this is just wrong. Silat is a complete system. But the different styles, of which there are hundreds, do have different emphases: nerve strikes, throws, etc. Silat is not above dirty tricks to distract the opponent, and it has a penchant for found weapons. And practicioners are often most comfortable fighting in extremely close quarters in order to utilize their elbows, knees, and head. Rather ideal for the bar environment in a fight against the hypothetical drunken jackass and his friends.
    Persilat is the official governing body of Pencak Silat. Here are its rules.... Note...
    No head strikes...and please...no bad words. Now you may then want to argue that it is a style of an archipelago of a zillion different islands and ten zillion different villages, and every village is different and some are more deadly than others etc etc etc. You would be right...however, stylistically speaking, having to go school to school to work out which particular East Javanese village the teacher studied in, and why he chooses to ignore the unified rules of conduct in order to make a No Can Defend style, is hardly an efficient means to finding a 'most effective for self defense' style. You may also argue that codifying = diluting....and again, you would be basically right, but that is hardly unique to silat. Hell if we wanted to undilute styles, take away the on-your-back time limit, the point-when-takedown-complete and add back in leg submissions, and judo would be an incredible self defense style... Oh and if you just want to see the little dancy things, well that's easy...go watch the Fight Quest from Indonesia. It'd be on youtube somewhere.
     
  17. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    No Can Defend?

    Actually, the No Can Defend Crane kick is only effective against white guys. Against Asians, you gotta break out the pivoting torso punch attack.
     
  18. King Francis

    King Francis Senior member

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    Persilat is the official governing body of Pencak Silat. Here are its rules....

    Note...


    No head strikes...and please...no bad words.

    Now you may then want to argue that it is a style of an archipelago of a zillion different islands and ten zillion different villages, and every village is different and some are more deadly than others etc etc etc. You would be right...however, stylistically speaking, having to go school to school to work out which particular East Javanese village the teacher studied in, and why he chooses to ignore the unified rules of conduct in order to make a No Can Defend style, is hardly an efficient means to finding a 'most effective for self defense' style.

    You may also argue that codifying = diluting....and again, you would be basically right, but that is hardly unique to silat. Hell if we wanted to undilute styles, take away the on-your-back time limit, the point-when-takedown-complete and add back in leg submissions, and judo would be an incredible self defense style...

    Oh and if you just want to see the little dancy things, well that's easy...go watch the Fight Quest from Indonesia. It'd be on youtube somewhere.


    You're mistaken if you think this organization is accepted as the governing body for all, or even most, silat schools and practitioners. Furthermore, even a cursory glance would tell you that those are rules solely for competition. If you looked further you'd see that the goal of Persilat is to tame the martial art in order to make it eligible to become a sport in the Olympics and other games. This goal is definitely not shared by most gurus. The rules of Persilat may limit sport competition for those who abide by them, but they do not at all limit what a guru can teach his students, nor do they otherwise limit the actual martial art in its non-sport contexts.

    Not really sure why you made the sweeping statements you made based on those rules. This is a little like saying a military-trained target shooter wouldn't be able to put a bullet in your gut simply because they aren't allowed to fire into the audience during competitions.

    And while there are many different silat styles that vary in their level of brutality, almost all styles of silat have a heavy emphasis on practical combat.
     
  19. Matt

    Matt Senior member

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    so, to summarise, you have two arguments...1. there are lots of kinds of silat, kinda like my first "you may want to argue" point....and 2. codifying = diluting. Kinda like my second "You may also want to argue"...so...uh...ok...
     
  20. King Francis

    King Francis Senior member

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    so, to summarise, you have two arguments...1. there are lots of kinds of silat, kinda like my first "you may want to argue" point....and 2. codifying = diluting. Kinda like my second "You may also want to argue"...so...uh...ok...

    Not really. I argued that no guru, to my knowledge, would eliminate things like head strikes from normal teaching and practice. It isn't a matter of "lots of kinds of silat" or of wasting many hours hunting for the right school. It's a matter of the broad range of techniques which you would receive from any good silat guru vs. the narrow limits of sport competition.

    It isn't a matter of dilution either, and certainly not over many years as has happened to various martial arts. While certain silat competitions will restrict participants from employing certain techniques, instruction at the guru-student level remains unaffected. As far as I know, there are no silat schools that teach it primarily as a tame sport.

    To truly summarize, I think your general statements about silat were idiotic and unfounded.

    You should also note for the future that attempting to anticipate another person's rebuttal of your points is only effective when you can actually demonstrate in advance why their rebuttal isn't valid.

    Everyone else should note, however, that I'm not trying to big up silat; I merely evinced surprise that no one had mentioned it in this thread up to that point.
     

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