1. And... we're back. You'll notice that all of your images are back as well, as are our beloved emoticons, including the infamous :foo: We have also worked with our server folks and developers to fix the issues that were slowing down the site.

    There is still work to be done - the images in existing sigs are not yet linked, for example, and we are working on a way to get the images to load faster - which will improve the performance of the site, especially on the pages with a ton of images, and we will continue to work diligently on that and keep you updated.

    Cheers,

    Fok on behalf of the entire Styleforum team
    Dismiss Notice

Where's all the Savile Row stuff?

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Apr 20, 2008.

  1. RJman

    RJman Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    18,647
    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Location:
    In the not too distant future
    @Manton: Well, without getting all mafoo on you, I think there's a continuum between needling you sometimes (as certain of us derive guilty pleasure in doing) and trolling (as certain others do shamelessly).

    BTW, the strange rabbit-laden coat of arms thing that Leffot has adopted as its insignia made me think of FNB. Sigh.
     
  2. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    41,568
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Location:
    In Hiding
    @Manton: Well, without getting all mafoo on you, I think there's a continuum between needling you sometimes (as certain of us derive guilty pleasure in doing) and trolling (as certain others do shamelessly).

    And I mostly can tell the difference. Though I of course am not infallible. But in this case, I think I pegged YF correctly.
     
  3. academe

    academe Senior member

    Messages:
    1,861
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2008
    Location:
    Initium sapientiae timor domini
    So if I understand you correctly: Because it's Savile Row, and it costs a lot....it can't be wrong?
    I think you're missing the point, and I don't think you should try and put words into Vox's mouth. SR garments are essentially commissioned pieces, and hence, reflect the style and desires of the client. What he seems to be saying is that you may not like RSS's stylistic choices, and since the only pictures posted are of his pieces, it does not necessarily reflect the diverse possibilities of SR tailoring. You can't go from a single example to sweeping condemnation like "SR is doomed!!!" In statistical terms, you have only one data point.
    I'm not sure it's a question of "I like". This forum, and the many people on the forum, spend countless hours debating, nay, justifying, how one maker is superior to another, and how one tailor is superior to the next. We come for advice, hoping that those who have studied and paid countless amounts have a better understanding of what is suitable. But then, those who have studied and paid countless amounts go overboard...they see monstrosities as in this thread, and sagely nod their heads in appreciation. It's ridiculous.
    But it is fundamentally a question of "like." Clothing is at it's root about aesthetics, within certain societal conventions. Because of RSS's personality and sense of style, he chose to have those pieces made in the way they are. Because they are bespoke and not RTW, it really is a very personal decision about what is "right" for you. I, for one, don't think any of his pieces are monstrous. Those words might be better used to describe, say the last Prada, Oswald Boateng or Thom Browne runway show, but there is nothing that strange about RSS's jackets. His choice of patterned material reflects a kind country gentleman aesthetic, which may seem a little idiosyncratic to you, but does not necessarily make him "ridiculous," by any stretch of the imagination. Also, I think with bespoke, it isn't necessarily about who is "superior" to another, as the different tailors have their own characteristics and defining features. It would be like trying to argue that one artist is superior to another; there is no answer to that, and it relies almost entirely on your personal aesthetic judgements.
    I don't have some special reservoir of good taste! My good taste is the same as the good taste of 90% of this forum. We all know how to fit a suit, shoulders, waist, wrists. We all realize that lapel widths change, number of vents and buttons are a choice. Let's face it, this is not rocket science. It's gets a bit dicey matching a shirt, tie and shoes together to the suit, but confidence and knowledge of self generally steers us all right.
    I think you're avoiding his question. Just post one photo of a style or look that you think would be in "good taste." It needn't necessarily be a photo of yourself.
    BUT, we come here to understand value! Should I actually pay $2000 for this suit, or are three $500 suits a better value? Should I pay $400 for this suit plus $100 for alterations -- in your experience would that be good value?
    I'm not sure if the same cost-benefit analysis applies for bespoke clothing, since the relationship between client and tailor is different from a normal commercial transaction.
     
  4. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

    Messages:
    25,756
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    I am going to take some time with this (probably naively), because you raise points that I find are valid but also points that are not.

    So if I understand you correctly: Because it's Savile Row, and it costs a lot....it can't be wrong?

    No, but perhaps I was unclear. I meant that RSS's photographs were interesting because usually when someone posts bespoke product, it is from one maker...sometimes, two. RSS has direct experience with more, and I think it unlikely they can be all "bad" in the same way. But it could be that you do not like RSS's personal style or taste--since that is the common thread among these different makers--and that's fair game, especially if played with discretion and kindness.

    I think that RSS explained earlier in this thread that his father was more conservative, and that when RSS set out in a more artistic field, he wanted to commision things that were less conservative. Within the SR framework, this will mean different cuts and fabric, either of which might look odd to the RTW eye.

    I will say that it would take more than the photographs in this thread to make me believe that Dege, Huntsman, Richard Anderson, and Anderson & Sheppard all uniformly delivered garments that did not fit RSS when they were commissioned. I suspect some of these items have had long lifespans, and perhaps it might be the case a refitting or two would have been beneficial after a few years. Others, like that A&S jacket, I think, are made from material that is inevitably going to bag...whether one finds that charming or annoying is a legitimate difference of opinion.

    Quite a few of the photographs of bespoke clothes on SF are posted here as special events because someone has just gotten something or is excited at entering the "world of bespoke" clothing. RSS, on the other hand, is sharing unassuming photographs over a long period of buying and wearing (and maybe, wearing out, which is as it should be) a variety of fine bespoke product.

    If I look at Mariano Rubinacci's own coats, and based on what I have read, much of his wardrobe is well worn, his coats have a natural, lived in look. This might seem sloppy to you, but I think it is mature and noble.

    I guess you must love D&G, Calvin Klein, Boss, etc.?

    I have a few trousers from D&G and Calvin Klein, and have nothing from Boss. I don't love the former, but I like what I have.

    I'm not sure it's a question of "I like". This forum, and the many people on the forum, spend countless hours debating, nay, justifying, how one maker is superior to another, and how one tailor is superior to the next. We come for advice, hoping that those who have studied and paid countless amounts have a better understanding of what is suitable.

    But then, those who have studied and paid countless amounts go overboard...they see monstrosities as in this thread, and sagely nod their heads in appreciation.

    It's ridiculous.


    Well, I think that it would be silly to argue that even a minute spent on an internet forum is, uhm, productive. Better to go out and breath fresh air.

    Did everyone like RSS's stuff? I don't think that is true.

    What I observe is that generally speaking, the people with the means and will to build a bespoke wardrobe will often be lukewarm about the bespoke wardrobes of others unless that wardrobe comes from the same maker. Some are outright hostile, although not so much on SF.

    There are not only the stylistic differences of each producer, but of each client, and the result is a wide variety of effects, many of them highly individual. Perhaps this makes it harder to be elegant in an age where conformity of taste is no longer bounded by tradition, class or geography.

    Frankly, it is probably easier to be elegant in RTW if you possess standard proportions and are educated about clothes. But only up to a point. Beyond that point, one will be messing with the success or failure of a bespoke wardrobe.

    I don't have some special reservoir of good taste! My good taste is the same as the good taste of 90% of this forum. We all know how to fit a suit, shoulders, waist, wrists. We all realize that lapel widths change, number of vents and buttons are a choice. Let's face it, this is not rocket science. It's gets a bit dicey matching a shirt, tie and shoes together to the suit, but confidence and knowledge of self generally steers us all right.

    BUT, we come here to understand value! Should I actually pay $2000 for this suit, or are three $500 suits a better value? Should I pay $400 for this suit plus $100 for alterations -- in your experience would that be good value?

    Generally, the people in these forums are pretty good at those questions.


    I agree, those are the subjects that work best here.

    But then a thread like this comes along. And rather than be honest about whether these suits are up to the same standards espoused in all the other threads, nobody will call the emperor naked. For example, the ticket pocket on one of the Anderson suits is about 2 inches too high -- why no comments on that?

    Since your opinion is so strong, I can't think of a better person to make them. So do, and build on the examples like this one.

    It was a jacket actually, thanks for remembering.

    I like Prada. Well, some...

    - B
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

    Messages:
    25,756
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Well, just to contribute more substantively to this thread, here are photographs of a sample of Savile Row (ish) bespoke garments from my guy, Edwin DeBoise, owner of Steed, located in Cumbria, that I have posted in WAYWRN or in other threads. Edwin cuts in the Scholte draped style, with his own twists on the traditional Anderson & Sheppard cut.

    The main stylistic points:

    - There are no sidebodies to the jackets

    - Three of the finished jackets have no front darts

    - No padding is used in the shoulders, just a tiny bit of wadding

    - Only a light canvass is used in the chest, much lighter than would be typical in SR houses other than A&S

    - Trousers are made to be braced

    A. Some finished products:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    B. Some products in the works:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    - B
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    16,118
    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2005
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Once we've finished calling out all the SR stuff we don't like, we better get started on WAYWT. So much to be done!
     
  7. yachtie

    yachtie Senior member

    Messages:
    4,553
    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    Excellent posts Vox and academe. To boil it down, questions of fit, cut and style are highly individualized when clothes are made to a person's specifications. But it's all about what the customer likes and what his tailor thinks will be his interpretation of what the customer is asking for. It's not about what you like yeah ok, or what anyone else likes. It's about what the customer likes. there are any number of posters here that get stuff made that I don't like and any number of posters that don't like what I get made. Objectively, are the garments crap? No. It's generally a matter of aesthetics, which is by its nature subjective.

    And yes even SR houses can turn out an objectively cruddy garment, but I didn't see any of such posted.
     
  8. YoungFogey

    YoungFogey Senior member

    Messages:
    112
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    And I mostly can tell the difference. Though I of course am not infallible. But in this case, I think I pegged YF correctly.

    You know, you complain about how personal these attacks on you can get. I'm beginning to understand why -- because you MAKE them personal. I've been a member here for about four years, but that's not good enough for you for my bona fides, apparently. No. Because I disagree with you on occasion or correct something you say, you call me a "troll".

    I had about 1000 posts over at AAAC before I quit. There were many reasons I walked away there, but chief among them was how heavy-handed, partial and nasty a certain moderator was. But to criticise him makes me a "troll" apparently.

    I've followed these boards for the last four years, and it's finally struck me what you are. You, sir, are a BULLY. Anyone who disagrees with you is "wrong". Unless they actually know what they're talking about, that is. Then, they are a "troll".

    You've been pretty successful in driving anyone who doesn't slavishly accept every word you say from both AAAC and LondonLounge. You're king of your domain there, no doubt. People write in asking, "Manton, what should I order from Huntsman next time round". And you love it. You do! You lap it up. But the interesting thing is that those sites are, for all intents and purposes, dying. AAAC has become an echo chamber of middlebrow trad and LondonLounge is a well-mannered and well-informed mausoleum.

    So you get bored. And like a BULLY, you look for new places to shake down. New places that must submit to the Manton diktat and infallibility. So anyone on SF who disagrees with you or challenges you must be destroyed. Their credibility must be called into question. They must be made suspect. So you plant the idea that they're "trolls" (because, after all, anyone who disagrees with you can only be a troll, right?). Your problem, though, is that once you successfully marginalise anyone on this site who questions your infallibility, and you've turned SF into yet another mausoleum, where will you go then?

    You know, I agree with about 85% of the points that you've made on AAAC and SF over the years. I think you have a very good grasp of what informs gentlemanly style and have developed a thoughtful philosophy about it. But if I disagree with you in the slightest or question the manner in which you deal with someone, I am, apparently, a "troll".

    A gentleman would not have made his accusations on the message board. A gentleman would have PM'd me and challenged my motivations privately. But, despite your clothes, your style, and your sense of superiority, your are no gentleman. You, sir, are nothing but a BULLY.
     
  9. misterjase

    misterjase Senior member

    Messages:
    266
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2007
    voxsatoria, the blue/red windowpane (what weight is it? whose cloth is it?) suit with the single button jacket is smooth. The jacket and trousers are a good fit and great look but I would prefer the trousers to be longer by a shade however (this may be me, and only me).
     
  10. A Harris

    A Harris Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    4,582
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    This is something I think very few people on these forums understand. Until one has actually spent a fair amount of time photographing his self for WAYWT then he cannot really understand how small changes in camera position and angle, lighting and pose can make HUGE differences in the final picture. Probably my most frequent response when looking at the WAYWT threads is a dramatic eye roll at the inane comments of those who can't recognize what is lense distortion and what is bad fit.

    Scott's DB pics are a good example I think. The combination of angle and pose makes it nearly impossible to tell what they actually look like in person. I've actually met Scott and can say that the coats I've seen him in fit beautifully. I also happen to like his loud tweeds.

    And yeah_ok, you're entitled to your opinion but how about expressing it in a civil manner.
     
  11. Fade to Black

    Fade to Black Senior member

    Messages:
    2,798
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2006
    if i had to pick a savile row tailor to get one suit made i'd probably go A&S. I don't think i have the know how to distinguish one from the other, but pics i've seen of people who were apparently wearing A&S in them looked good and from what i hear it's a softer approach to tailoring as compared to the armor like Huntsman, so there you go.

    But if i had the means i probably wouldn't go A&S, as I prefer Tom Ford's aesthetic and it probably suits me better

    edit: +1 to A Harris above point. I'd say a good 90% of the pics i've taken for WAYWT are crap (in terms of the PICTURE), and also inconsistent and i think a good testament to this is looking at several photos with some of the same items they almost never look alike in two. Most people though, probably do not have the understanding of separating bad angle/bad fit, others are probably just looking for any chance they can get to pounce on somebody. An amateur photograph never did a good job of capturing an individual's style in the first place imo
     
  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    20,795
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    But if i had the means i probably wouldn't go A&S, as I prefer Tom Ford's aesthetic and it probably suits me better

    I'm surprised to hear this, given your appreciation for Yoji and soft, unstructured clothing. Doesn't Tom Ford represent something of an antithesis to all that? From what I gather, his suits are very angular in the shoulders and generally appear to impose significant shape and structure.
     
  13. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    41,568
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Location:
    In Hiding
    You know, you complain about how personal these attacks on you can get. I'm beginning to understand why -- because you MAKE them personal. I've been a member here for about four years, but that's not good enough for you for my bona fides, apparently. No. Because I disagree with you on occasion or correct something you say, you call me a "troll".

    I had about 1000 posts over at AAAC before I quit. There were many reasons I walked away there, but chief among them was how heavy-handed, partial and nasty a certain moderator was. But to criticise him makes me a "troll" apparently.

    I've followed these boards for the last four years, and it's finally struck me what you are. You, sir, are a BULLY. Anyone who disagrees with you is "wrong". Unless they actually know what they're talking about, that is. Then, they are a "troll".

    You've been pretty successful in driving anyone who doesn't slavishly accept every word you say from both AAAC and LondonLounge. You're king of your domain there, no doubt. People write in asking, "Manton, what should I order from Huntsman next time round". And you love it. You do! You lap it up. But the interesting thing is that those sites are, for all intents and purposes, dying. AAAC has become an echo chamber of middlebrow trad and LondonLounge is a well-mannered and well-informed mausoleum.

    So you get bored. And like a BULLY, you look for new places to shake down. New places that must submit to the Manton diktat and infallibility. So anyone on SF who disagrees with you or challenges you must be destroyed. Their credibility must be called into question. They must be made suspect. So you plant the idea that they're "trolls" (because, after all, anyone who disagrees with you can only be a troll, right?). Your problem, though, is that once you successfully marginalise anyone on this site who questions your infallibility, and you've turned SF into yet another mausoleum, where will you go then?

    You know, I agree with about 85% of the points that you've made on AAAC and SF over the years. I think you have a very good grasp of what informs gentlemanly style and have developed a thoughtful philosophy about it. But if I disagree with you in the slightest or question the manner in which you deal with someone, I am, apparently, a "troll".

    A gentleman would not have made his accusations on the message board. A gentleman would have PM'd me and challenged my motivations privately. But, despite your clothes, your style, and your sense of superiority, your are no gentleman. You, sir, are nothing but a BULLY.


    All of this crap is, of course, the party line FNB view of me -- which, when you present it like this, does not really serve to make your case that you have no skin in that game, as it were. I'm sure if you cared you could go back find hundreds -- no, thousands -- of posts where I disgree with people but acknowledge differences in taste, etc. I know that I sometimes say X or Y is "wrong," but in virtually all those case it is when someone asks a question and wants to know what the tradition is, or else it's a playful response to someone I know personally and who gets the joke.

    I don't post much on those other places, and certainly don't dominate as you allege, so that attack is "inoperative."

    As to being a bully, what I am doing -- finally, after 5 years in some cases, 3 in the case of FNB personally, and 2.5 in the case of his forum -- is standing up to bullying. I've taken oceans of crap -- up to and including libel and character assassination -- from FNB the man and FNB the site., I'm talking about dozens of posts a day, every day, since the day that forum launched. Plus all his crap in AA and all the crap he brings here. From the day it started until recently, I never responded to any of it, ever, assuming that it would eventually exhaust itself.

    But it hasn't. And apparently, so attachted to this one-way grudge is that man (a grudge that I still do not know what it is based on) that it will never stop. He has said openly that I deserve every bit I get and that until I come and beg him, it will never stop.

    Fine, he has a site, and if he chooses to devote it to bashing me, there's really not much I can do about it. But he is the one who also brings the bullying here. And rather than continue to take it, endlessly, I decided to stand up for myself.

    And when I did, your reaction was to call me the troll and the agressor.

    Forgive me if, from that, I concluded that you were just another FNB troll.
     
  14. Fade to Black

    Fade to Black Senior member

    Messages:
    2,798
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2006
    I'm surprised to hear this, given your appreciation for Yoji and soft, unstructured clothing. Doesn't Tom Ford represent something of an antithesis to all that? From what I gather, his suits are very angular in the shoulders and generally appear to impose significant shape and structure.

    i appreciate a variety of shapes and design aesthetics even though my favorite is Yohji. For example, the other designer whose work speaks to me the most is Hedi Slimane...one can argue his silhouette is an antithesis to Yohji; but i find that pairing the two actually makes for a nice clash that ends up being harmonious in some ways.

    i didn't think i could pull off a Tom Ford suit since i assumed it was for a more muscular build; however after trying one on i was dazzled...as far as structured tailored clothing goes i don't think i've ever worn anything more flattering. It was a shame the suit is out of my price range, but wearing it for a brief while i felt like a new man, ready for business.
     
  15. academe

    academe Senior member

    Messages:
    1,861
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2008
    Location:
    Initium sapientiae timor domini
    vox- Great photographs! Thanks also for the brief stylistic summary. I always like seeing pictures of "works in progress"; have they had a chance to finish your DB suit? Is that the infamous "black suit" in the middle pictures? [​IMG]
    Well, just to contribute more substantively to this thread, here are photographs of a sample of Savile Row (ish) bespoke garments from my guy, Edwin DeBoise, owner of Steed, located in Cumbria, that I have posted in WAYWRN or in other threads. Edwin cuts in the Scholte draped style, with his own twists on the traditional Anderson & Sheppard cut. The main stylistic points: - There are no sidebodies to the jackets - Three of the finished jackets have no front darts - No padding is used in the shoulders, just a tiny bit of wadding - Only a light canvass is used in the chest, much lighter than would be typical in SR houses other than A&S - Trousers are made to be braced A. Some finished products: [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] B. Some products in the works: [​IMG] [​IMG] - B
     
  16. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    14,577
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2006
    Just for the hell of it, I feel like pointing out that I love the Dege and Richard Anderson sportcoats that RSS posted. Sure, the Dege coat is pulling a drop at the waist button, but an extra meal or two can do that to any of us. You can see from looking at the sides around the waist, that the overall fit is not off. The RA sportcoat is dead on. I like the Huntsman too, but prefer the others. The AS is not being helped by being rumpled out of the box, but even if pressed, I might still not like it.

    As for the DBs, it is hard to tell much about fit as the posing and photos are not that helpful, but I do agree that the diagonal stripe one looks odd. And I certainly agree that the full length front dart is not helpful. This would be a good fabric for a dartless cut, or a hidden underarm dart. Perhaps the appearance is also harmed by the artifact of posting lo-res digital photos and the darts are less visible in real life. But in the photo, the dart is pretty visible and unsightly. The AS DB looks good to me, but it is not that helpful a photo so I can't say I have a strong opinion.
     
  17. Mildly Consumptive

    Mildly Consumptive Senior member

    Messages:
    1,100
    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2007
    - There are no sidebodies to the jackets - Three of the finished jackets have no front darts - No padding is used in the shoulders, just a tiny bit of wadding
    To me, this is all pretty amazing. Edited to add: Does he make all his jackets like this? Or are these features special requests?
     
  18. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

    Messages:
    25,756
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    vox-

    Great photographs! Thanks also for the brief stylistic summary. I always like seeing pictures of "works in progress"; have they had a chance to finish your DB suit? Is that the infamous "black suit" in the middle pictures? [​IMG]


    Thank you. The DB is actually a dinner jacket and trousers, which I expect to receive finished this month.

    And yes, that is a black suit in the middle photo...that rarest of Savile Row birds.

    To me, this is all pretty amazing.

    Edited to add:

    Does he make all his jackets like this? Or are these features special requests?


    These are some characteristic features of a Scholte soft coat, traditionally associated after Scholte with Anderson & Shepard. One of the Scholte's design tenets was to minimize the use of seams in the jacket, and to shape it to the body with minimal trimmings. Generally, there are usually no sidebodies, but there is usually an underarm dart, and often there is a front dart (although only one of my jackets have a front dart).

    Some people hate this look, but I love it. One can also surmise it is comfortable, but I think any well cut jacket of a wide range of styles can be comfortable as well if done correctly.

    - B
     
  19. Zandros

    Zandros Senior member

    Messages:
    112
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    [​IMG]

    The single button suit is quite beautiful, but I fear that digital photography does the pattern no justice; I first mistook the windowpanes for artefacting.

    Would it be too much to ask for to see the three button suits with another button closed, to further accentuate the shape?

    /Adrian
     
  20. yeah_ok

    yeah_ok Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2008
    And yeah_ok, you're entitled to your opinion but how about expressing it in a civil manner.

    You know, I've learned something about bespoke on this thread -- thanks in particular to vox sartoria. (Your pics didn't hurt -- very nice, in my opinion.)

    In addition, I'd agree that I was a bit aggressive. I hadn't made that leap of understanding, that bespoke is art, versus the science component of just dressing well. As I understand it, there is a point at which spending more is not about perfection, it is about different modes of expression. At some monetary value is the limit required for technical perfection. Anything beyond that is just about feeling. And arguing about feeling -- about what kind of painting a person chooses to hang in their own bedroom -- is fairly pointless. It's destructive without purpose.

    I admit that I intended to be challenging to the point of being destructive, but I had the wrong understanding of the topic.

    Thank you to the couple people with the patience to respond with substance. I sympathize with you if you must do that often. But I appreciate your effort this time around.

    (Still, I can't resist: please -- for the love of pete, and any newbies -- please make a comment in these situations that such articles of clothing are not to be aspired to by the vast majority of forum browsers....)
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by