Where's all the Savile Row stuff?

[Fade to Black]

if i had to pick a savile row tailor to get one suit made i'd probably go A&S. I don't think i have the know how to distinguish one from the other, but pics i've seen of people who were apparently wearing A&S in them looked good and from what i hear it's a softer approach to tailoring as compared to the armor like Huntsman, so there you go.

But if i had the means i probably wouldn't go A&S, as I prefer Tom Ford's aesthetic and it probably suits me better

edit: +1 to A Harris above point. I'd say a good 90% of the pics i've taken for WAYWT are crap (in terms of the PICTURE), and also inconsistent and i think a good testament to this is looking at several photos with some of the same items they almost never look alike in two. Most people though, probably do not have the understanding of separating bad angle/bad fit, others are probably just looking for any chance they can get to pounce on somebody. An amateur photograph never did a good job of capturing an individual's style in the first place imo

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by Fade to Black

But if i had the means i probably wouldn't go A&S, as I prefer Tom Ford's aesthetic and it probably suits me better

I'm surprised to hear this, given your appreciation for Yoji and soft, unstructured clothing. Doesn't Tom Ford represent something of an antithesis to all that? From what I gather, his suits are very angular in the shoulders and generally appear to impose significant shape and structure.

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by YoungFogey

You know, you complain about how personal these attacks on you can get. I'm beginning to understand why -- because you MAKE them personal. I've been a member here for about four years, but that's not good enough for you for my bona fides, apparently. No. Because I disagree with you on occasion or correct something you say, you call me a "troll".

I had about 1000 posts over at AAAC before I quit. There were many reasons I walked away there, but chief among them was how heavy-handed, partial and nasty a certain moderator was. But to criticise him makes me a "troll" apparently.

I've followed these boards for the last four years, and it's finally struck me what you are. You, sir, are a BULLY. Anyone who disagrees with you is "wrong". Unless they actually know what they're talking about, that is. Then, they are a "troll".

You've been pretty successful in driving anyone who doesn't slavishly accept every word you say from both AAAC and LondonLounge. You're king of your domain there, no doubt. People write in asking, "Manton, what should I order from Huntsman next time round". And you love it. You do! You lap it up. But the interesting thing is that those sites are, for all intents and purposes, dying. AAAC has become an echo chamber of middlebrow trad and LondonLounge is a well-mannered and well-informed mausoleum.

So you get bored. And like a BULLY, you look for new places to shake down. New places that must submit to the Manton diktat and infallibility. So anyone on SF who disagrees with you or challenges you must be destroyed. Their credibility must be called into question. They must be made suspect. So you plant the idea that they're "trolls" (because, after all, anyone who disagrees with you can only be a troll, right?). Your problem, though, is that once you successfully marginalise anyone on this site who questions your infallibility, and you've turned SF into yet another mausoleum, where will you go then?

You know, I agree with about 85% of the points that you've made on AAAC and SF over the years. I think you have a very good grasp of what informs gentlemanly style and have developed a thoughtful philosophy about it. But if I disagree with you in the slightest or question the manner in which you deal with someone, I am, apparently, a "troll".

A gentleman would not have made his accusations on the message board. A gentleman would have PM'd me and challenged my motivations privately. But, despite your clothes, your style, and your sense of superiority, your are no gentleman. You, sir, are nothing but a BULLY.

All of this crap is, of course, the party line FNB view of me -- which, when you present it like this, does not really serve to make your case that you have no skin in that game, as it were. I'm sure if you cared you could go back find hundreds -- no, thousands -- of posts where I disgree with people but acknowledge differences in taste, etc. I know that I sometimes say X or Y is "wrong," but in virtually all those case it is when someone asks a question and wants to know what the tradition is, or else it's a playful response to someone I know personally and who gets the joke.

I don't post much on those other places, and certainly don't dominate as you allege, so that attack is "inoperative."

As to being a bully, what I am doing -- finally, after 5 years in some cases, 3 in the case of FNB personally, and 2.5 in the case of his forum -- is standing up to bullying. I've taken oceans of crap -- up to and including libel and character assassination -- from FNB the man and FNB the site., I'm talking about dozens of posts a day, every day, since the day that forum launched. Plus all his crap in AA and all the crap he brings here. From the day it started until recently, I never responded to any of it, ever, assuming that it would eventually exhaust itself.

But it hasn't. And apparently, so attachted to this one-way grudge is that man (a grudge that I still do not know what it is based on) that it will never stop. He has said openly that I deserve every bit I get and that until I come and beg him, it will never stop.

Fine, he has a site, and if he chooses to devote it to bashing me, there's really not much I can do about it. But he is the one who also brings the bullying here. And rather than continue to take it, endlessly, I decided to stand up for myself.

And when I did, your reaction was to call me the troll and the agressor.

Forgive me if, from that, I concluded that you were just another FNB troll.

 

[Fade to Black]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

I'm surprised to hear this, given your appreciation for Yoji and soft, unstructured clothing. Doesn't Tom Ford represent something of an antithesis to all that? From what I gather, his suits are very angular in the shoulders and generally appear to impose significant shape and structure.

i appreciate a variety of shapes and design aesthetics even though my favorite is Yohji. For example, the other designer whose work speaks to me the most is Hedi Slimane...one can argue his silhouette is an antithesis to Yohji; but i find that pairing the two actually makes for a nice clash that ends up being harmonious in some ways.

i didn't think i could pull off a Tom Ford suit since i assumed it was for a more muscular build; however after trying one on i was dazzled...as far as structured tailored clothing goes i don't think i've ever worn anything more flattering. It was a shame the suit is out of my price range, but wearing it for a brief while i felt like a new man, ready for business.

 

[academe]

vox- Great photographs! Thanks also for the brief stylistic summary. I always like seeing pictures of "works in progress"; have they had a chance to finish your DB suit? Is that the infamous "black suit" in the middle pictures?

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

Well, just to contribute more substantively to this thread, here are photographs of a sample of Savile Row (ish) bespoke garments from my guy, Edwin DeBoise, owner of Steed, located in Cumbria, that I have posted in WAYWRN or in other threads. Edwin cuts in the Scholte draped style, with his own twists on the traditional Anderson & Sheppard cut. The main stylistic points: - There are no sidebodies to the jackets - Three of the finished jackets have no front darts - No padding is used in the shoulders, just a tiny bit of wadding - Only a light canvass is used in the chest, much lighter than would be typical in SR houses other than A&S - Trousers are made to be braced A. Some finished products:

B. Some products in the works:

- B

 

[dopey]

Just for the hell of it, I feel like pointing out that I love the Dege and Richard Anderson sportcoats that RSS posted. Sure, the Dege coat is pulling a drop at the waist button, but an extra meal or two can do that to any of us. You can see from looking at the sides around the waist, that the overall fit is not off. The RA sportcoat is dead on. I like the Huntsman too, but prefer the others. The AS is not being helped by being rumpled out of the box, but even if pressed, I might still not like it.

As for the DBs, it is hard to tell much about fit as the posing and photos are not that helpful, but I do agree that the diagonal stripe one looks odd. And I certainly agree that the full length front dart is not helpful. This would be a good fabric for a dartless cut, or a hidden underarm dart. Perhaps the appearance is also harmed by the artifact of posting lo-res digital photos and the darts are less visible in real life. But in the photo, the dart is pretty visible and unsightly. The AS DB looks good to me, but it is not that helpful a photo so I can't say I have a strong opinion.

 

[Mildly Consumptive]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

- There are no sidebodies to the jackets - Three of the finished jackets have no front darts - No padding is used in the shoulders, just a tiny bit of wadding
To me, this is all pretty amazing. Edited to add: Does he make all his jackets like this? Or are these features special requests?

 

[voxsartoria]

Originally Posted by academe

vox-

Great photographs! Thanks also for the brief stylistic summary. I always like seeing pictures of "works in progress"; have they had a chance to finish your DB suit? Is that the infamous "black suit" in the middle pictures?

Thank you. The DB is actually a dinner jacket and trousers, which I expect to receive finished this month.

And yes, that is a black suit in the middle photo...that rarest of Savile Row birds.

Originally Posted by Mildly Consumptive

To me, this is all pretty amazing.

Edited to add:

Does he make all his jackets like this? Or are these features special requests?

These are some characteristic features of a Scholte soft coat, traditionally associated after Scholte with Anderson & Shepard. One of the Scholte's design tenets was to minimize the use of seams in the jacket, and to shape it to the body with minimal trimmings. Generally, there are usually no sidebodies, but there is usually an underarm dart, and often there is a front dart (although only one of my jackets have a front dart).

Some people hate this look, but I love it. One can also surmise it is comfortable, but I think any well cut jacket of a wide range of styles can be comfortable as well if done correctly.

- B

 

[Zandros]

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

The single button suit is quite beautiful, but I fear that digital photography does the pattern no justice; I first mistook the windowpanes for artefacting.

Would it be too much to ask for to see the three button suits with another button closed, to further accentuate the shape?

/Adrian

 

[yeah_ok]

Originally Posted by A Harris

And yeah_ok, you're entitled to your opinion but how about expressing it in a civil manner.

You know, I've learned something about bespoke on this thread -- thanks in particular to vox sartoria. (Your pics didn't hurt -- very nice, in my opinion.)

In addition, I'd agree that I was a bit aggressive. I hadn't made that leap of understanding, that bespoke is art, versus the science component of just dressing well. As I understand it, there is a point at which spending more is not about perfection, it is about different modes of expression. At some monetary value is the limit required for technical perfection. Anything beyond that is just about feeling. And arguing about feeling -- about what kind of painting a person chooses to hang in their own bedroom -- is fairly pointless. It's destructive without purpose.

I admit that I intended to be challenging to the point of being destructive, but I had the wrong understanding of the topic.

Thank you to the couple people with the patience to respond with substance. I sympathize with you if you must do that often. But I appreciate your effort this time around.

(Still, I can't resist: please -- for the love of pete, and any newbies -- please make a comment in these situations that such articles of clothing are not to be aspired to by the vast majority of forum browsers....)

 

[MichaelE]

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

You know, I've learned something about bespoke on this thread -- thanks in particular to vox sartoria. (Your pics didn't hurt -- very nice, in my opinion.)

In addition, I'd agree that I was a bit aggressive. I hadn't made that leap of understanding, that bespoke is art, versus the science component of just dressing well. As I understand it, there is a point at which spending more is not about perfection, it is about different modes of expression. At some monetary value is the limit required for technical perfection. Anything beyond that is just about feeling. And arguing about feeling -- about what kind of painting a person chooses to hang in their own bedroom -- is fairly pointless. It's destructive without purpose.

I admit that I intended to be challenging to the point of being destructive, but I had the wrong understanding of the topic.

Thank you to the couple people with the patience to respond with substance. I sympathize with you if you must do that often. But I appreciate your effort this time around.

(Still, I can't resist: please -- for the love of pete, and any newbies -- please make a comment in these situations that such articles of clothing are not to be aspired to by the vast majority of forum browsers....)

That is a very fine bespoke in the photo.

 

[MichaelE]

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

OH MY GOD!

These suits are truly, truly horrid.

The colours of all those SB jackets are simply disgusting. Where in the world could you possible wear those? Maybe to the racquetball club or something. The diagonal stripes of the DB RA suit are horrid. Somebody cocked up a material purchase, and then you were sold a bill of goods, so they could off-load the fabric onto you.

For fit, I certainly see nothing special. This is the famed "Savile Row"? The A&S SB jacket looks to be splitting at the seams. Or maybe you put on weight after they finished?

Both of those DB suits look like you dropped a sack over your shoulders. The RA one in particular, makes you look like you're pregnant. And, as somebody politely asked already: what's up with the darts going right to the bottom? Was the tailor unable to cut the thing properly??

Guys, I'm sorry to be the one shouting that the emperor has no clothes. But come on. There must be $30k in suits in these pictures, and nothing to show for it. You would have been better off shopping at Macy's, and buying LSD with the change. At least you'd know when the fun was over...


I hope you are not including my suit in your short review.

 

[yeah_ok]

Originally Posted by MichaelE

I hope you are not including my suit in your short review.

It's hard to focus on the suit. My eyes keep being drawn to the moustache and haircut...

 

[oscarthewild]

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

I thought I made three:

1) The suits in this thread are of materials which are for the most part unusable. A charitable way of saying this, is that it would be very difficult to think of a situation where a tan jacket with flaming orange windowpanes could be suitable. An uncharitable way would be to say that the only matching accessories would be a red wig and nose.

.....

Why is such a situation so hard to imagine? Should one restrict bespoke clothing to blues and greys for the office? I do not wear a suit to the office. These items are fun items for me. http://styleforum.net/showthread.php...uit#post147610
&
http://styleforum.net/showthread.php...uit#post267351

The blue linen plaid suit turned out to be a mistake. Have never been able to wear the top and the bottom together. This would not have happened if I had stuck with conventional fabrics. But that is not my goal or desire.

I have received more complements on the black white houndstooth wiht the orange over plaid than any other suit I own. It is different but not very loud until one scrutinizes it.

 

[MichaelE]

Originally Posted by yeah_ok

It's hard to focus on the suit. My eyes keep being drawn to the moustache and haircut...

I wish I could have gotten my arm out farther for the photo. Camera phones are crap, and no film or tri-pod for the A-1.

Besides, I'd probably never get around to getting them developed.