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Where Have the Good Men Gone

Discussion in 'Social Life, Food & Drink, Travel' started by Kyoung05, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. wetnose

    wetnose Senior member

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    Relatively affluent, free of family responsibilities, and entertained by an array of media devoted to his every pleasure, the single young man can live in pig heaven—and often does. Women put up with him for a while, but then in fear and disgust either give up on any idea of a husband and kids or just go to a sperm bank and get the DNA without the troublesome man. But these rational choices on the part of women only serve to legitimize men's attachment to the sand box. Why should they grow up? No one needs them anyway. There's nothing they have to do.
    Uh yeah no. Sperm banks are running dry because donors know they can be slammed with a paternity suit 10 years down the road. Also...invitro is horribly expensive - $10K an attempt and it's not even guaranteed. Plus by the time she needs ivf, she may be too old...and there's all sorts of complications. Plus...if nobody needs us, then what is she whining about?
     
  2. clee1982

    clee1982 Senior member

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    Who's saying everyone has to start the next Zappos.com? I'm talking about, say, starting your own law firm instead of working for someone else's law firm, or your own cab company if you're a cabbie, or your own pizza parlor if you're a pizza delivery guy. Maybe you buy a bunch of apartments in foreclosure and rent them out. Maybe you quit a dead-end job and live off savings while you write that screenplay that has been burning a hole in your imagination.

    People, especially immigrants, do this all the time. Native born Americans tend to eschew such entrepreneurial activities because they're both risky and require long hours. It's simply not in our paradigm because we're very risk averse and we've been acclimated into accepting this sort of Novocaine comfort that comes from having a bi-monthly check.

    That "lame 19th Century American Dream bullshit" as you call it is very much alive -- just not among too many Americans.

    FWIW, I wouldn't have had to stones to do this myself had I not been fired in '07 from the only job I had ever wanted. (Fired, incidentally, three days before my second daughter was born.) When I couldn't find another job like it, I had to do precisely what you say is fiction -- strike out on my own. Frankly, I'm a happier and ever so slightly richer man for it. And when I want to go see a movie at 2:00 PM on a Tuesday, I do it. I'm not better or smarter at what I do than anyone else, I just got abandoned in the woods and had to find my own way out.


    Immigrants have nothing to lose and everything to gain. American dream is always more true for first generation immigrants than for anyone else.
     
  3. Harold falcon

    Harold falcon Senior member

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    Uh yeah no. Sperm banks are running dry because donors know they can be slammed with a paternity suit 10 years down the road.

    What? When has this ever happened?
     
  4. mkarim

    mkarim Senior member

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    Frankly, I thought this article was bull. I live in a major city and I can't tell you how many countless tramps I see running around San Francisco, who work during the day in some dead end office job, and spend their nights hooking up with some random douchebag in the marina. And then they do it all again the next night. This phenomenon is not limited to men; women are in the same boat. People are just staving off responsibility these days. It isn't just a male thing.

    Agree. I see this trend not only across the US but spreading around the world.
     
  5. mkarim

    mkarim Senior member

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    A lot of that is true but they leave out one major factor that has changed which is that women and society in general no longer expects men to do those things.

    Oh you'd be surprised. Many women still not only expect, but demand, that men fulfill their duties...
     
  6. v0rtex

    v0rtex Senior member

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    Richard Branson

    The myth of the college drop out is a logical fallacy:

    • Some very successful entrepreneurs dropped out of school
    • Therefore, if I drop out of school I am more likely to become a successful entrepreneur

    This is incorrect. The majority of self-made millionaires are college educated. Only 20% do not have a college degree (compared to 45% of the general population). 18% have masters, 8% law, 6% medical, 6% PHDs - so 58% have at least an undergraduate degree (source: Millionaire Next Door).

    If you have the opportunity to go to college, it still seems like a good investment of time and money even if you want to do your own thing.

    Back to the original topic, it seems that there's no good reason to grow up any more hence perpetual adolescence.

    We are told from a young age (especially in America) to pursue our passions and that we can do anything we want, so picking a focus feels like we're selling out our dreams - especially if it feels like we're settling for something boring but stable.

    If we don't know what our passions are (and most people don't), we wait around to find them - taking temp jobs, playing video games and wondering what we are missing out on. What the author of the article describes as "growing up" feels like settling (and thus failing).
     
  7. denning

    denning Senior member

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  8. countdemoney

    countdemoney Senior member

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    Maybe men should start thinking in terms of not signing up with a company and instead strike out on their own.

    A lot of it has to do with capital formation. There are some exceptions, but if you're an socioeconomically average guy or gal you are going to come out of college with debt. Your ability to get together the necessary funds to make a real go at independence becomes difficult.

    It is becoming increasingly acceptable to forgo college or defer it, and that approach makes much more sense in today's economy. Given the demise of the humanities and classical education in college, I see little value in it outside of being able to cross off that resume tickbox or learn a specialization.

    I recall Glenn Reynolds (instapundit) describing college debt as the new indentured servitude. There is much to agree with that characterization.
     
  9. Bill Smith

    Bill Smith Senior member

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    +1 but why is she shitting on "this" woman when she herself has divorced 3 times?

    In the case of the article I posted, Tracy McMillan is from personal experience stating, "behave like the examples in my piece, is not going snag you the husband you want deep down."

    I have long come to the conclusion that men and women can be their own worst enemies in personal relationships.
     
  10. Bill Smith

    Bill Smith Senior member

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    That's a great article, Bill Smith. Thank you for posting it, I enjoyed it.

    My pleasure, it was a good piece by and large.
     
  11. Bill Smith

    Bill Smith Senior member

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    The world needs fewer idiots with pointless start-up ideas. It'd be much more lucrative to be the dude who started Zappos.com rather than the intern just starting out for Zappos.com, but at the end of the day, both m-f'ers are selling discount shoes online. Somebody gets rich, somebody gets a decent 401k, but none of the Steve McQueen, "self-made-man," rosebud shit is as romantic nor as personally or socially valuable as you make it out to be.

    "Strike out on your own" is some lame 19th century American Dream bullshit that never had any basis in historical or present reality. So it's appropriate you're quoting a fictional character in Tony Soprano, who passed out at the sight of fucking ducks.


    If I had a dollar for every lame ass pointless start up idea/business model.....
     
  12. Sazerac

    Sazerac Senior member

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    A lot of it has to do with capital formation. There are some exceptions, but if you're an socioeconomically average guy or gal you are going to come out of college with debt. Your ability to get together the necessary funds to make a real go at independence becomes difficult.

    It is becoming increasingly acceptable to forgo college or defer it, and that approach makes much more sense in today's economy. Given the demise of the humanities and classical education in college, I see little value in it outside of being able to cross off that resume tickbox or learn a specialization.

    I recall Glenn Reynolds (instapundit) describing college debt as the new indentured servitude. There is much to agree with that characterization.


    It's funny, but I went to a state school and worked full-time to pay tuition. I'm not saying this to sound all bootstrappy, but that envy I felt toward the kids from the other side of the tracks vanished when I found I could make rent because I had zero in student loans and they were up to their eyeballs in debt.

    As to the formation of capital, you make an excellent point. Personally I found the easiest way to build wealth was through real estate, but that was only because the returns were good (at the time) and there were well-established avenues for borrowing money where the real estate itself was the collateral and in the interest rates weren't usurious.

    I do think college is valuable, however, in terms of shaping your knowledge of the world so you have some idea of cultural context. But in terms of practical skills, I, at least, gained none at all. I studied philosophy and political science and ended up working on Madison Avenue. Writing a senior thesis on Frantz Fanon hardly prepared me to write Ford commercials.
     
  13. Grey

    Grey Well-Known Member

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    "Behind every successful man is a woman who makes it necessary."


    QFT
     
  14. pstoller

    pstoller Senior member

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    I studied philosophy and political science and ended up working on Madison Avenue. Writing a senior thesis on Frantz Fanon hardly prepared me to write Ford commercials.

    I wonder. So much of advertising plays/preys on the sorts of things you learn about individuals and society in precisely those college courses. Plus, while writing a thesis about Fanon may not be direct preparation for writing Ford commercials, learning to write well is. Few enough college graduates are competent writers, never mind those with less education.

    Besides, couldn't you distill something from Fanon for one of those countless car ads equating driving with freedom?
     
  15. Bill Smith

    Bill Smith Senior member

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    A follow up from Kay Hymowitz on the WSJ piece.

    --
     
  16. intent

    intent Senior member

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  17. mkarim

    mkarim Senior member

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    A follow up from Kay Hymowitz on the WSJ piece.

    --


    I actually concur with this.
     
  18. Bill Smith

    Bill Smith Senior member

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    I actually concur with this.
    This piece made a rather interesting bookend to the WSJ column. Kinda sad really.
     
  19. Bill Smith

    Bill Smith Senior member

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    please ignore, too early in the morning.
     
  20. freeAgent

    freeAgent Senior member

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    As a single guy who has been in the dating pool a while, there is definitely truth in that follow-up. I was recently asked out by a woman who then had me pay for the date ($20/person brunch). Seriously? I'm not trying to run some sort of upscale food bank here. Some women are also incredibly focused on their careers to the point where they take themselves out of the dating pool entirely, with or without knowing it. I have a lot less experience with what men other than myself do in terms of dating because I'm not trying to date other men, but I'm sure we screw things up similarly.
     

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