What would you call this:

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by dorian, Apr 8, 2005.

  1. dorian

    dorian Senior member

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  2. Nick M

    Nick M Senior member

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    I believe it's called a 'stroller', like morning wear, only... not. Daytime semi-formal, like a tuxedo is nighttime semi-formal.

    Manton will tell us momentarily.
     
  3. alchimiste

    alchimiste Senior member

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    Striped trousers and grey vest remind of a morning coat. If it's new with tag, the seller may read the tag. Half way between a morning coat and a dinner jacket... a breakfast jacket?
     
  4. WJTW

    WJTW Well-Known Member

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    It seems bespoke morning coats are usually (if not always) more expensive than a regular suit and overcoat. Does anybody know why they cost more? More material used, perhaps or more workmanship needed?

    Oh look. The buttons are not cloth covered but regular suit-buttons so I don't think it will even be suitable as a tuxedo jacket, won't it?

    WJTW
     
  5. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    Correct.  The stroller is basically a defunct mode of daytime formal wear.  (Sorry, Tutee.)  It should not be worn with a bowtie, however, but with a long four-in-hand in black or silver or black-and-white or maybe some light but reasonably subtle color.  The stroller does not have silk facings on the lapels or button coverings.  It is for all intents and purposes an odd suit coat, either in black or dark gray, with besom pockets and peaked lapels.  Sometimes one would see them with notched lapels, which I suppose is not exactly "incorrect," but it doesn't look quite right to my eye, either.

    Both.  Much more material than a regular suit coat.  Less than a typical overcoat, but it's much harder to make.  There is a waist seam, for instance, and all the cloth from the skirt on down is cut in separate pieces from the chest and back.  The rear vent is also quite tricky.  Since not many of morning coats are ever ordered, not too many tailors know how to make them, or even want to learn.  The big SR houses generally have to have one cutter on staff who can do it, just in case.  But it's hard to convince anybody to be that guy: he has to go to a lot of trouble to learn skills that will rarely be put to use. This also drives up the cost, if you only have one guy (if that) on the whole team who knows how to do it.
     
  6. nightowl6261a

    nightowl6261a Senior member

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    A Brunch jacket with no tails, what has the world come to, where would you wear such an outfit, and I agree about the buttons, whaz up with that...the coat is quite attractive, I think the vest is a little over done with the dbl'd row buttons, but maybe I am out of it on morning wear..the pants are I am sure very nice, but I think the dark stripes are a bit heavy...and what are the pocket seams, are they closure seams to be taken out upon being bought, or a design style to add a little flair....would an ascot not be more appropriate, or at least a striped bow if you were going to place a bow tie with that combination? [​IMG]
     
  7. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    You could also wear an SB vest.

    A lot of patterns are "correct" with strollers: black and white glen plaid or sheppard's check, for instance.  You don't have to wear striped morning coat trousers.

    Yes.

    No, an ascot would be "too much"; morning coats only. And even then, even in England at weddings or Royal Ascot, no one wears ascots with morning coats any more, though one could ...

    No, the bow is just "wrong."  Four-in-hand.
     
  8. nightowl6261a

    nightowl6261a Senior member

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    See this is the reason I do not like wearing a tux, because I do not know what is appropraite...I much learned lesson for me here.
     
  9. alchimiste

    alchimiste Senior member

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    Manton, what's the difference between a morning coat and this breakfast jacket? Both in terms of the details (apart from the tail) and formality/circumstances when it is worn?

    Mathieu
     
  10. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    The tail and other aspects of the cut are the key differences. Â Also: morning coats are always SB, with a link closure, whereas strollers can be SB or DB. Â There is such a thing as a (gray) morning coat with a matching vest and trousers, but a stroller always takes odd trousers (and an odd vest if SB; no vest if DB). In terms of when they are worn, well, the correct answer today would be pretty much "never." Â But historically, the morning coat was required for daytime weddings, for the wedding party and even (in many cases) for the guests. Â Also for high society "garden parties" and social events in London (less so in New York). Â Guests at a formal day wedding might wear a stroller instead. Â A stroller was also more common at (say) christenings. Â There were certain churches in which the majority of men wore strollers to services on Sunday. Â In London as late as the 30s, some older men wore strollers to work every day (e.g., Stanley Baldwin). Â They were the rear-guard, however, and perceived to be such. But the line between the stroller and the morning coat was never as distict as that between the DJ and the tailcoat, in which the invitation to the event would say "black tie" or "white tie." Â If you were in a wedding party, you would be told what you were expected to wear. Â If you were a guest, the invitation might say, and it might not. Â If not, then a morning coat was sort of "optional", the stroller "correct" and a dark suit "acceptable."
     
  11. imageWIS

    imageWIS Senior member

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    (Nick M @ April 08 2005,01:09) I believe it's called a 'stroller', like morning wear, only... not. Daytime semi-formal, like a tuxedo is nightime semi-formal.
    Correct. The stroller is basically a defunct mode of daytime formal wear. (Sorry, Tutee.) It should not be worn with a bowtie, however, but with a long four-in-hand in black or silver or black-and-white or maybe some light but reasonably subtle color. The stroller does not have silk facings on the lapels or button coverings. It is for all intents and purposes an odd suit coat, either in black or dark gray, with besom pockets and peaked lapels. Sometimes one would see them with notched lapels, which I suppose is not exactly "incorrect," but it doesn't look quite right to my eye, either.
    Both. Much more material than a regular suit coat. Less than a typical overcoat, but it's much harder to make. There is a waist seam, for instance, and all the cloth from the skirt on down is cut in separate pieces from the chest and back. The rear vent is also quite tricky. Since not many of morning coats are ever ordered, not too many tailors know how to make them, or even want to learn. The big SR houses generally have to have one cutter on staff who can do it, just in case. But it's hard to convince anybody to be that guy: he has to go to a lot of trouble to learn skills that will rarely be put to use. This also drives up the cost, if you only have one guy (if that) on the whole team who knows how to do it.
    Well more than one person has to know how to do it, how else do you explain the Vienna Opera? Jon.
     
  12. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    Those are tailcoats, not morning coats.  And I didn't say "one in the entire world".  I said "only one at most SR houses."
     
  13. imageWIS

    imageWIS Senior member

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    (imageWIS @ April 08 2005,10:12) Well more than one person has to know how to do it, how else do you explain the Vienna Opera?
    Those are tails. And I didn't say "one in the entire world". I said "only one at most SR houses."
    Listen, I'll read and interpret what you posted anyway I want [​IMG] Jon.
     
  14. alchimiste

    alchimiste Senior member

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    Manton you definitely need to get this book out.
     
  15. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    Manton, as much as we are diametrically opposed in most of our opinions, I admire your knowledge. I would wager that there were maybe less than half a dozen of us who understand the intricacies of daywear, since it is worn so uncommonly these days.

    As for strollers - I actually much prefer the semi-formality of it to full morning dress. The lack of tails, imo, makes it much more wearable as actual clothing, rather than purely as costume.
     

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