What martial art should I learn?

[emptym]

This is one of the few times on SF I've wanted to meet people, discuss stuff in person, and learn things from each other.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by mizanation

yeah, i thought the krav episode was pretty good. they weren't trying to teach rolling kneebars--which is a real, valid technique, but one that takes a pretty good base in bjj to do. i like how in krav, they just teach the bare essentials necessary for a wide variety of combat situations.

it was funny - I trained at the two bases they showed, 20 years ago, a lot has changed since then, and some stayed the same. I was watching it with my wife and kept saying "hey look at that" and she was more or less in the "whatever" mindset.

basically, in israel they do 4 sets of military training in krav - basic to help soldiers who aren't in combat avoid getting kidnapped or attacked, slightly more than basic for combat troops to build up "toughness", an anti-terror course for guys who will be on swat teams, and then the instructors course. the short courses are 2 weeks, antiterror is 6, and then the trainers is much longer. of course, this is from 20 years ago, no idea what its like now.

 

[mizanation]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

it was funny - I trained at the two bases they showed, 20 years ago, a lot has changed since then, and some stayed the same. I was watching it with my wife and kept saying "hey look at that" and she was more or less in the "whatever" mindset.

basically, in israel they do 4 sets of military training in krav - basic to help soldiers who aren't in combat avoid getting kidnapped or attacked, slightly more than basic for combat troops to build up "toughness", an anti-terror course for guys who will be on swat teams, and then the instructors course. the short courses are 2 weeks, antiterror is 6, and then the trainers is much longer. of course, this is from 20 years ago, no idea what its like now.

from what my krav instructor friend told me (who also trained in israel), the civilian krav curriculum is very different from the military krav. military krav, depending on the course, covers more weapon work and stuff like assassination techniques which are not taught to civilians.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by mizanation

from what my krav instructor friend told me (who also trained in israel), the civilian krav curriculum is very different from the military krav. military krav, depending on the course, covers more weapon work and stuff like assassination techniques which are not taught to civilians.

I don't know if I would call it assasination techniques, but the assumption is that you aren't trying to get away - you are trying to kill the guy. now I take civillian krav, and the end of the technique is always "now you run away", but I always find that sort of strange. in the military version, the basic idea was to kill or arest the guy you were fighting.

 

[mizanation]

well, assassination techniques is the terminology my friend uses. hey, did anyone see the bourne ultimatum? there's a fight scene that combines a lot of good stuff. i know the fight choreographer must be from JKD or FMA because i saw a ton of kali and even some panatuken (!). in the end i was disappointed cuz the assassin got beat with a standard gi-choke, when he should have known the defense for it. i guess he should have focused more on BJJ.

*EDIT* just did some research, the fight choreographer for bourne ultimatum was jeff imada. looks like he's a FMA and JKD expert, teaching at the inosanto academy and specializing in balisong. don't want to get in a knife fight with him.

 

[bbaquiran]

There's this guy Paul Vunak that teaches an abbreviated JKD system that focuses on things like headbutts and eye pokes. He encourages full-contact practice with the use of motorcycle helmets. Google and see etc.

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by mizanation

, teaching at the inosanto academy

Well, shiver me timbers.

Dan Inosanto taught at my junior high (although I was never in his class). He taught P.E. (duh) among other things, and occasionally he would do martial arts demonstrations for us (when you're a 12-14 year old boy, that's pretty damn cool). We all were very impressed that he was one of the guys getting their butts kicked in a Bruce Lee movie (Enter The Dragon, I believe) and got shot with a speargun by Burt Reynolds in Sharkey's Machine.) Reportedly (I wasn't there) one day he got frustrated with a kid in one of his classes and broke a desk in half.



I'm glad to know that he has (apparently) done well for himself.

 

[Matt]

Originally Posted by mizanation

if all you do is train titty-twisters and neglect fundamental skills, you will not be able to pull it off.i
but theyll give you a blackbelt in aikido almost immediately.

Originally Posted by globetrotter

I was watching it with my wife and kept saying hey look at that and she was more or less in the whatever mindset.
*sigh*

I dont know why you keep her. That woman is more trouble that she is worth.

 

[mizanation]

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

Well, shiver me timbers.

Dan Inosanto taught at my junior high (although I was never in his class). He taught P.E. (duh) among other things, and occasionally he would do martial arts demonstrations for us (when you're a 12-14 year old boy, that's pretty damn cool). We all were very impressed that he was one of the guys getting their butts kicked in a Bruce Lee movie (Enter The Dragon, I believe) and got shot with a speargun by Burt Reynolds in Sharkey's Machine.) Reportedly (I wasn't there) one day he got frustrated with a kid in one of his classes and broke a desk in half.



I'm glad to know that he has (apparently) done well for himself.

wow, that's awesome!

 

[Eason]

Originally Posted by mizanation

eason, did you see the "human weapon" episode on the marine corps martial arts?

did you see how they taught their rolling kneebar? wow, that **** was horrible. the technique was all wrong. it was embarrasing.

I did see that episode and enjoyed it immensely because of stuff like that. Thinking "wouldn't it be nice to train with them and clean up shop in one of their classes", or what would happen if my gym had a team vs. the MCMAP team rolling in OC'd grass

 

[mizanation]

i can't say i enjoyed watching it, i was cringing most of the time.

i wouldn't teach a rolling kneebar to someone who's gonna be wearing tons of equipment and who is most likely going to be bumrushed by multiple insurgents. if i had to, i wouldn't teach it before they had the following skills down-pat: 1) granby-roll 2) standard defenses against rear bear-hug (gracie jiu-jitsu 101) -- so much easier to execute. 3) regular armbar 4) regular kneebar you can tell they had no idea what they were doing. also, you could tell the guy teaching probably just saw this technique on a tape or in a ufc fight. one thing i noticed was that the mma fighter executed the kneebar perfectly. he grabbed with his arms, not his hands, he hugged the guys shin to his chest and controlled the heel. he was nice and low on the guy's leg to get the right leverage point. he's probably done that technique hundreds of times. unlike the marine who was teaching the technique.

 

[retronotmetro]

Originally Posted by mizanation

nice article. but, yeah, it's just common sense.

forms are not necessary for fighting. you are fooling yourself if you think so.

what boxers do is not a form. it's shadow boxing. it's actually using the techniques they would use in a real fight.

You'd think so, but the guy who runs that website, though very pragmatic to me or you, is actually controversial in TMA circles for being self-critical of his own art. He has a great line that goes something like "if you told the average karateka in the beginning that they could practice diligently for ten years and still get their ass kicked by a high school football player, they'd probably buy a gun for self-defense and take tennis lessons instead."

 

[mizanation]

Originally Posted by retronotmetro

You'd think so, but the guy who runs that website, though very pragmatic to me or you, is actually controversial in TMA circles for being self-critical of his own art. He has a great line that goes something like "if you told the average karateka in the beginning that they could practice diligently for ten years and still get their ass kicked by a high school football player, they'd probably buy a gun for self-defense and take tennis lessons instead."

that's an awesome line.

sad, but true.

so, what is so traditional about traditional martial arts?

the original, "traditional" purpose of martial arts was to be able to fight effectively. in that case, wouldn't martial arts like MMA or Muay Thai, be considered the true, "traditional" martial arts? after all, they are concerned with performance first.

muay thai is hundreds of years old, so, why isn't it considered a "traditional" martial art? it predates karate styles that are considered "traditional."

 

[retronotmetro]

Originally Posted by emptym

Thanks for the link, retronotmetro.
Much of what it says may be true. But I think all things in life are interdependent or connected. The question is, can we see the connection? Of course, some things are more or less connected. I've found forms to be very helpful for sparring and self-defense, but maybe that's due to the forms, my past instructors, etc.

To miz, retro, m@t, or anyone: If you teach, do you teach forms ever? If so, what value do you see in them if you find no connection to sparring and self-defense?

In a way, our discussion is one among those w/ a shared conviction: that martial arts are helpful for real fights. We merely debate the particularities. Others might and do argue that sparring itself (boxing included), with its various rules and referees is simply another form of forms, far removed from real fight situations. What would you say to them?

Teach? Heh, no. I'm just a weekend warrior krotty student doing 3-4 classes a week. We do kata only occasionally in class. When we do kata, it is usually done in place of the standard "marching basics" most karate dojos use for warmup. Then we move on to other drills. Our head instructor seems to treat kata as a way for him to spot-check form and focus, rather than the primary repository of practical techniques.

We spend the bulk of training time either drilling specific techniques with partners, or doing sparring with varying levels of contact. Rarely do our kumite drills relate to the content of kata. Usually we do a progression kind of like this: for a few reps one guy will throw a single kick or punch, the other guy parries and counters, then we switch sides, then we do the drill with multiple kicks/punches, then we go free for a couple of minutes with no instructor counting and no stoppage. Contact for these drills will be whatever level the instructor specifies, which can range from "no touch" to half power depending on who is in class. After doing those drills we might do partner sparring, usually with light contact and no attacks to the groin or joints, with no stoppage when someone gets hit (unless they are injured).

I do enjoy learning and practicing kata, but only because of the physical and mental challenge of learning, retaining, and performing them. I think that a good dancer could probably learn the most complicated kata in a single afternoon, and perform it well enough to get by in a dan grading. But they still wouldn't have improved their fighting skills.

 

[emptym]

^Sounds good. I'm a big believer in cross-training and the whole web-of-life thing.
It's all good. It's all connected. The question is, can we see the connections?