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what makes Seven for all mankind and Hudson jeans so expensive?

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Brocktherock, Jul 6, 2011.

  1. wannabe

    wannabe Senior member

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    Speaking of Rock & Republic: On April 28, 2011, VF Corporation announced it had signed a long-term licensing deal with Kohl's Corporation to carry the Rock & Republic brand. Source:
    Wikipedia/http://www.apparelnews.net/news/manu...nd?______array
    [​IMG] Granted, I believe it is R&R's budget line, like EA for Armani, but I'm not sure.
     
  2. dacox

    dacox Senior member

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    What I find really funny about this is that the holy grail of SW&D is "worked hard and put away wet." "Fashion" jeans very often try to counterfeit authenticity, for want of a better way to put it.

    So a lot of people $300 buy jeans that have artificial wear marks and fake holes . . . well the holes are real, I suppose, but you know what I mean . . . but completely disdain the idea of buying real jeans that someone might actually work in.
    True, there are issues of cut and fit but a lot of makers, even Wrangler, make a variety of cuts.

    Anyway, I think it is hilarious when people spend $300 to buy wimpy jeans that already have holes and fade marks. If I could figure out how to market them, I've got a big enough stack of trashed denim to finance a world cruise.


    Big +1 to Whodini

    I mean, I sort of agree what some of you guys are saying with the marketing, brand image, etc. driving prices way up and having enough people buy in to it to support the brand, but that doesn't have anything to do with the SW&D. Most of these brands (7FAM, True Religions, etc.) are pretty much universally dismissed as overpriced, over-styled garbage. And as far as pre-distressing goes, if you actually read the last 100, hell 1000, pages of the WAYWT thread you wouldn't find a single fit with all these fake holes/fades that you are talking about where the guy wasn't dragged over the coals. These 7FAM, True Religion, distressed to hell fits just don't exist over there, so I don't really get those references. The real world's a different story though, and living here in China now, I see more ridiculous distressing than I can take sometimes.

    As far as the expensive prices people pay, it's mostly for smaller, boutique brands with small production runs, intricate weaving/dying techniques, and better cuts. I understand if that stuff isn't really necessary or appreciated over here, but that doesn't mean the quality difference doesn't exist, at least with these boutique brands. Does that make it worth it for you? For you guys who dress MC everyday, probably not, but for SW&D guys who wear casual clothes on a daily basis, paying for a fully canvassed jacked isn't worth it either, despite the increase in quality. Just different strokes.

    Anyways, these over-styled, over-distressed denim brands suck. You guys agree, SW&D guys agree, but the average guy on the street will still fall for the hype.
     
  3. thebac

    thebac Senior member

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    There's an informative article in today's Wall Street Journal on how much goes into making a premium pair of jeans (True Religion). Essentially, there are multiple layers of large profit margins that drive up the price. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...284498872.html
     
  4. cptjeff

    cptjeff Senior member

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    r smaller, boutique brands with small production runs, intricate weaving/dying techniques, and better cuts.

    You still fall for hype, just different hype.... Intricate weaving and dying- well, dying I'll give you. It eats up money. Better? Just a matter of taste. Weaving? It's more expensive, but the benefit is dubious. Better cuts? Not from the fit pics I see on SW&D they ain't. Most of them look like pretty lousy fits, thought that might just be the sagging that ensures a crotch blowout. Boutique brands with smaller runs? Markup for 'exclusivity' right there. You may be getting the exact same jean levis makes, but it would be 3x the price. Quality is not a necessary condition for a boutique markup.


    I guess I'm just a cynic.
     
  5. Bounder

    Bounder Senior member

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    As for the wider public, how else are they going to get that cool, authentic look without having to get up off the couch? Because cowboys wore 44x32, right?
    Heh. Another thing that is really funny about pre-faded, pre-distressed jeans is that the distressing and fading seems to be either "artistically" or randomly placed. What, exactly, were the owners supposed to be doing to give their jeans wear marks like this? [​IMG] Jeans that have actually been, say, ridden in, since you mention cowboys, develop very specific wear marks in very specific spots which, to some extent, depend on the kind of riding you are doing. I have never, ever, not once, seen a pair of pre-distressed/faded jeans that looked anything like actual jeans that have been ridden in. BTW, FWIW, the far-and-away favorite brand of actual "cowboys" in the Southwest of the US is Wrangler.
     
  6. whodini

    whodini Senior member

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    Better cuts? Not from the fit pics I see on SW&D they ain't. Most of them look like pretty lousy fits, thought that might just be the sagging that ensures a crotch blowout.
    You do understand that there's a difference between a well-cut pair of jeans and the decision a person makes on how to wear their jeans, right? Also, cut can be subjective BS, not just with jeans but with any article of clothing. People buy and enjoy pairs of '55 501 LVC because they're archival pieces with the fit to match the period, the same way some MCers enjoy boxy suits to evoke an older aesthetic.

    Boutique brands with smaller runs? Markup for 'exclusivity' right there. You may be getting the exact same jean levis makes, but it would be 3x the price. Quality is not a necessary condition for a boutique markup.
    Smaller runs do not necessarily equal markups associated with "limited edition" products. That WSJ article gives a fairly realistic breakdown the perfectly illustrates my point. The denim they used, while done in smaller runs compared to the rest of the wide loomed goods that Cone produces, isn't very expensive. Several other companies use the same denim for jeans geared towards the SW&D crowd, and they're done in runs FAR smaller than R&R and the like. These jeans retail from around $150 and up, essentially half the price of the R&R model featured in that article. I'm not sure if I have to explain how minimums work but typically the more product there is to make, the CHEAPER it will be to make it; this is true in terms of labor in assembly as well as fabric, zippers, buttons, etc.

    I'd like to see an example of a pair of jeans that's "the exact same jean levis makes" at 3x the price. Actually, in the case of some of the companies listed above they're using patterns, denim, and details extremely comparable to those of LVC and do so for less.

    I guess I'm just a cynic.
    The question for me becomes if you're a cynic because you're misinformed or simply uninformed.
    I have never, ever, not once, seen a pair of pre-distressed/faded jeans that looked anything like actual jeans that have been ridden in.

    BTW, FWIW, the far-and-away favorite brand of actual "cowboys" in the Southwest of the US is Wrangler.

    You might be doing your research in the wrong library. There are several brands that take authentic washes and distressing to nearly-perfectionist levels. Levi's, for example, has a well-known history of buying jeans that are decades old and then painstakingly recreates a copy to sell to customers for $501.

    Extra credit if you know why Wrangler is a favorite brand among cowboys.
     
  7. plei89

    plei89 Senior member

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    The quality is not good on the denim material. Non of those brands use selvedge material, to my knowledge. For $200, you'd be better off with some entry level selvedge brand like Levi's Vintage 501 reproductions.
    This makes no damn sense. Selvedge does not necessarily equate to quality. I have two or three pairs of 7FAM because they're the most comfortable jeans I own to this date. And I own about 50 pairs of jeans ranging from $100-$1,200. They are usually my go to jeans when I want a comfortable day out.
     
  8. Bounder

    Bounder Senior member

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    You might be doing your research in the wrong library. There are several brands that take authentic washes and distressing to nearly-perfectionist levels. Levi's, for example, has a well-known history of buying jeans that are decades old and then painstakingly recreates a copy to sell to customers for $501.
    Maybe. I haven't been doing any research at all. It's merely an observation. I will take your word for it that some companies do as you say. But certainly, the vast majority do not. And I really never have seen a pair of pre-distressed/faded jeans that look like they have been ridden in. Maybe no urban SW&D aficionado wants to be mistaken for a cowboy. Though I should add that it is not just "cowboys" who wear jeans to ride.
    They're cheap, tough and usually made in Mexico instead of China! Plus, they probably like the name. It is hard to imagine a real cowboy wearing a brand called "Seven For All Mankind" or "Panda Fairy" or whatever. But I don't want to get too far afield. My point is that I think it is funny that people pay large amounts of money for fake authenticity but turn their noses up at real authenticity which is available for a fraction of the price.
     
  9. GBR

    GBR Senior member

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    Yes greed but some purveyors of goods like to place them in more exclusive price sectors because they have created an image of high quality. It is greed but many high end suit suppliers offer inferior goods (fused crap) but the label is that with which people wish to be seen.

    Fools can readily be parted from their money for appearance sake. It is a good business model.
     
  10. whodini

    whodini Senior member

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    Maybe. I haven't been doing any research at all. It's merely an observation. I will take your word for it that some companies do as you say. But certainly, the vast majority do not. And I really never have seen a pair of pre-distressed/faded jeans that look like they have been ridden in. Maybe no urban SW&D aficionado wants to be mistaken for a cowboy. Though I should add that it is not just "cowboys" who wear jeans to ride.
    The vast majority don't because their focus isn't on making the washes appear authentic. They're going for flash and uniqueness, essential qualities in the world of pop fashion (see: Ed Hardy, Swarovski crystal-ladden clothes, etc.) And when you say "ridden in," you just mean jeans that look authentically "worn" or that someone has worn in pre-distressed jeans? Look at the tasteful washes done by Levi's, 45 rpm, RRL, PRPS, etc. Unless you're really paying attention or actively looking, I'm not surprised you would have not seen distressed jeans that appeared authentic. In person, it can be harder to tell the real-deal worn jeans from their expensive, hard-to-find pre-distressed counterparts.
    They're cheap, tough and usually made in Mexico instead of China! Plus, they probably like the name. It is hard to imagine a real cowboy wearing a brand called "Seven For All Mankind" or "Panda Fairy" or whatever.
    Those are nice theories, but they're just that. You can also claim that preference of Levi's, Rustlers, Lee, Wrangler, etc. can also be generational and I've noticed that at times. But the real answer as to why Wranglers are preferred is that they were one of the first brands (if any) to produce a pair of jeans specifically with cowboys in mind. Next time you pick up a pair, ask yourself what's the one thing that separates it from everyone else. The answer is the inseam. If you'll notice, on a pair of Wranglers the inseam is stitched flat and smooth while the outseam has a stitched "lip;" With other jeans, the opposite is true. The reason for the difference is cowboy comfort as a fabric lip on the inseam can prove uncomfortable when pressed against a saddle during a long ride. Wrangler recognized this and the rest is history.
    But I don't want to get too far afield. My point is that I think it is funny that people pay large amounts of money for fake authenticity but turn their noses up at real authenticity which is available for a fraction of the price.
    This statement is the epitome of both ignorance and irony, and for a SW&D guy it comes off as the rather laughable mantra of the MC stance towards denim (no offense to LawyerDad, Hunstman, PocketSquare, and others.) "Authenticity" can be described as the honest origin of a product, correct? What, sir, is "authentic" about a pair of $30 Levi's made with wide-loomed denim in a third-world country without the bells and whistles of buttons, a leather patch, and hidden back pocket rivets? To a SW&D guy like me, buying those $30 Levi's at Sears has about the same level of "authenticity" as buying a Gucci bag on Canal St. or a dvd copy of Cars 2 off an alley in LA's garment district. As with any product, if you want the real-deal "authentic" version it comes at a price. The problem is that most outsiders scoff at that price because they don't understand the level of work and attention to detail that it takes to achieve, preferring to carry over their "pure hype" analogies of pop fashion brands and apply them to reproduction or heritage brands. It's bullshit. It's not to say that there aren't companies that fluff their margins by playing up the "heritage" marketing, but the same fluff is true for any industry. And as an informed consumer, you learn to pick out the Hugo Boss, 7FAM, Ed Hardy, etc. of the industry. No offense, but it sounds like you guys just don't know better and prefer it that way. To each their own, I just prefer to base my opinions on fact instead of conjecture but can understand if a genuine lack of interest is what stops you. But if there are any other misconceptions, please send them my way and I'll be happy to put on a clinic.
     
  11. MrMensWear

    MrMensWear New Member

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    Answer: Try on Wranglers or Lands End Jeans, look at yourself....Then try on 7 For all Mankinds...Game Set Match
     
  12. iTylerStewart

    iTylerStewart Active Member

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    7 Jeans are probably the shittiest jeans next to True religion. Theyre actually not expensive at all. Theyre entry level "denim". Garbage fits, terrible washes and terrible fabrics.



    This makes no damn sense. Selvedge does not necessarily equate to quality.

    .


    Selvage does have relation to expensive denim but you are correct, it has no direct effect on the costs.
     
  13. stu00a

    stu00a Senior member

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    Company can sell it at whatever price they want to sell. And consumers will decide either buy or not.

    Even though it is cheap ass jean, company pay for their advertisement on fashion magazines, movies or even tv commercials, and cost of labor, delivery, raw materials are all considered.

    But some comapnies are very honest and very high quality.
    not like Armani clothes made of fucking syenthetic fibers like poly-brothers.
     
  14. jrd617

    jrd617 Senior member

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    This makes no damn sense. Selvedge does not necessarily equate to quality. I have two or three pairs of 7FAM because they're the most comfortable jeans I own to this date. And I own about 50 pairs of jeans ranging from $100-$1,200. They are usually my go to jeans when I want a comfortable day out.
    It almost always equates to durability, which is a preferable trait. Cone Mills/Japanese loomed denim is undeniably more durable and lasts longer. Especially in the heavier weights. I'm not talking about comfort or cut (some of the 7FAM cuts are nice) If given the choice between a $200 pair of 7FAM jeans and $200 LVC jeans, I'd pick the latter.
     
  15. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    There is an astounding amount of ignorance in this thread. Whodini is the only person (unsurprisingly) who knows wtf they are talking about here. Scoffing at something you know nothing about is a sign of profound philistinism. Next up: Jackson Pollock sucks because my 3 1/2 year old can do the same shit.

    Other questions: Are John Lobb shoes actually tougher than Cole Haans? Do Borrelli shirts last 10x longer than Land's End shirts - they feel so flimsy? Just... stupid. I'm embarrassed for you guys.
     
  16. iTylerStewart

    iTylerStewart Active Member

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    There is an astounding amount of ignorance in this thread. Whodini is the only person (unsurprisingly) who knows wtf they are talking about here. Scoffing at something you know nothing about is a sign of profound philistinism. Next up: Jackson Pollock sucks because my 3 1/2 year old can do the same shit.

    Other questions: Are John Lobb shoes actually tougher than Cole Haans? Do Borrelli shirts last 10x longer than Land's End shirts - they feel so flimsy? Just... stupid. I'm embarrassed for you guys.


    idk there are a few good points in here. Homeboy did write a thesis tho. He had a lot of convincing words in that as well.
     
  17. reedobandito

    reedobandito Senior member

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    There is an astounding amount of ignorance in this thread. Whodini is the only person (unsurprisingly) who knows wtf they are talking about here. Scoffing at something you know nothing about is a sign of profound philistinism. Next up: Jackson Pollock sucks because my 3 1/2 year old can do the same shit. Other questions: Are John Lobb shoes actually tougher than Cole Haans? Do Borrelli shirts last 10x longer than Land's End shirts - they feel so flimsy? Just... stupid. I'm embarrassed for you guys.
    Hoo boy! First time over in the MC side in a while, seems like the MC crowd talks A LOT more about what's going on with the SW&Ders than we talk about them. Just an observation. Edit: And can we just take a moment to give a hand to Whodini for being the best researched and most logically consistent poster on this thread?
     
  18. dinogj

    dinogj Senior member

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    This thread is like trying to explain love to a robot.
     
  19. stevent

    stevent Senior member

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    The quality is not good on the denim material. Non of those brands use selvedge material, to my knowledge. For $200, you'd be better off with some entry level selvedge brand like Levi's Vintage 501 reproductions.
    I wear True Religion, Seven and Rock & Republic. Things that these brands have over your regulular Lee, Levi's, Hang Ten, Uniqlo: - Cut - Better denim - Higher quality stitching. Especially the hem lines - Leather decoration - Made in USA First and last items make it more expensive. The other one's are arguable.
    Levis have white oak cone selvedge for around 200 minus whatever discount code you use. Uniqlo sells made in Japan with Japanese selvedge / and Japanese selvedge made in China versions for around $75 and $40 after currency conversion. Both are miles ahead of 74AM, True Religion, R&R. American construction does not always equal better quality. My brother bought a bunch of 7s at Barneys when everything was like 90% off a few years ago and they are all faded/ripped/torn and he did not wear them that much. True Religion and R&R are probably the two ugliest pair of jean brands in the world with their pocket decorations. It's always kinda sad to have all the Chicago / midwest kids at University going around saying they have the best jeans in the world when they don't even know what selvedge is and bought all their jeans at full price. It also happens in California as well, though not at the level of the midwest. It comes down to what the guy said earlier: women. And maybe all the rappers mentioning these jean brands.
     
  20. ThatGuy

    ThatGuy Senior member

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    ^^ Uniqlo jeans are ugly as hell!

    BRB thinking if something is boring looking, it represents classic styling.

    The raw/ selvedge denim look is so overdone in the Western countries. Look at pink shirts and cufflinks. LOL at all the lemmings.
     

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