What is worse in Europe

[Tokyo Slim]

Originally Posted by whoopee

Koreans seem to be pretty widely reviled.

Its the garlicky food and dominance in Olympic speed skating. Thats my theory anyways.

 

[whoopee]

Well the food - kimchi - has something to do with it, but I submit it's more to do with their insularity and nationalist fervour. Which rears its ugly face in times like the 2002 cup, for example.

 

[Kent Wang]

I think it has more to do with a history of vassalage to China and colonization by Japan.

 

[whoopee]

That engenders the racism but not the hate. I do know that many Chinese claim cultural superiority over the Koreans and Japanese (and Vietnam). The resentment comes from them having lost the peninsula, culturally and militarily amd the Koreans hardening their insular, nationalist, and perhaps xenophobic impulses.

 

[LabelKing]

China has always claimed cultural-and racial-superiority over everyone notwithstanding its Asian neighbors.

And then when the invading ethnic armies come in to assume their dynasties they adapt the Chinese insolence, witnessed with Britain's emissary, Lord McCartney.

 

[Bouji]

Originally Posted by LabelKing

China has always claimed cultural-and racial-superiority over everyone notwithstanding its Asian neighbors.

And then when the invading ethnic armies come in to assume their dynasties they adapt the Chinese insolence, witnessed with Britain's emissary, Lord McCartney.

Are we talking the 'real' Chinese (republicans - Taiwan) or the communists, because surely they cannot be considered to be the real Chinese society; its only because of the US foreign policy of the middle of the 20th century that put them there, and exactly because of that I doubt they claim any superiority. They know it all too well.

 

[LabelKing]

Originally Posted by Bouji

Are we talking the 'real' Chinese (republicans - Taiwan) or the communists, because surely they cannot be considered to be the real Chinese society; its only because of the US foreign policy of the middle of the 20th century that put them there, and exactly because of that I doubt they claim any superiority. They know it all too well.
Well, I didn't intend to bring the semantics of politics into this but I was more discussing China historically.

There's a reason China is still known as the Middle Kingdom.

 

[whoopee]

The definition of "real Chinese" is quite amorphous, as over the years, various races and civilisations have intermixed in the region now considered China and beyond. Frankly I'd love to hear your (Bouji) prescription of what is a real Chinese, and why those living under the Communist regime are not.

The Communist government, in fact, altered history and scholarship to represent the "Chinese"- which they do claim to be - as being even more culturally and politically dominant than what many indepedent scholars might. They certainly do claim superiority.

 

[whoopee]

double post

 

[Kent Wang]

Just because one government is the legitimate ruler of China cannot possibly mean that the society of the other is no longer Chinese. Fifty years of political division cannot possibly bifurcate millenia of shared cultural heritage.

Also, it was the KMT that the US supported, not the communists.

 

[Nantucket Red]

Originally Posted by LabelKing

Well, I didn't intend to bring the semantics of politics into this but I was more discussing China historically.

There's a reason China is still known as the Middle Kingdom.

I believe the term Middle Kingdom derives from the view that China was the center of the world, which in terms of many facets of civilization, it was until relatively recently. There is a four-character phrase for this in Japanese, but I can't recall it offhand.

 

[whoopee]

Some scholars, notably Andre Gunder Frank, place China as the centre of the world economy up until the 18th century and the subsequent shift in power merely temporary. SAM Adshead has a nice response to Frank, as well as his own formulation of China's place in the world in T'ang China: The Ris eof the East in World History (I beleive that's the name).

 

[Bouji]

Agreed, they are the same intermixed race to and extent, and share a lot of culture, but you miss the point. They were a separate culture for more than just 50 odd years, before that the KMT and the communists were quite separate societies, one being urban, and the other rural.
Moreover, my initial question was sincere; I want to know which one claims superiority. In my experience, and I know a number of both Chinese and Taiwanese people, they don't consider themselves to have the same culture, albeit similar, in the same way as say Lao people and Thai people. So, to claim that they are the same is just a theory, in practice, I know they consider themselves different.
Also, it is my understanding that though initially the US supported the KMT, this changed as the war progressed, and the very reason why the communists are in power today is due to the American foreign policy of the time. Although, I'd assume from your name that you're from that area, so I'm sure you have a good knowledge.

 

[Kent Wang]

Originally Posted by Bouji

Also, it is my understanding that though initially the US supported the KMT, this changed as the war progressed, and the very reason why the communists are in power today is due to the American foreign policy of the time. Although, I'd assume from your name that you're from that area, so I'm sure you have a good knowledge.
That's simply not the case. The US never supported the communists or played any part in their success. The US was funneling money, equipment and training to the KMT all the way until they were forced to evacuate to Taiwan.

 

[whoopee]

Some nebulous thoughts before I rush out tonight:

Certain native Taiwanese do consider themselves different from Mainland Chinese people, even those that setlled on the island over fifty years ago. There is a clear divide between the two groups in Taiwan, which makes it impossible to group "republican" and Taiwan together. It is a touchy and complex subject that rages daily in the streets. My personal feeling, my family being of mainland origins and belonging to the KMT, having grown up largely in Taiwan and maintained residences in various parts of the world where Chinese communities exist, including China, is that while there certainly are differences, the similarities overwhelm them. Different dialects are spoken, different cuisines enjoyed, but these constitute regional subcultures. Urbanites and rural people are different everywhere but would normally not constitute disparate cultures either.

To your original point, I believe, in fact, that Taiwanese people in general are more likely not to claim cultural superiority over the Koreans and Japanese than the Chinese, not the other way around. Partly because some do not feel kinship with the imperial court (on the mainland), though textbooks have and still adopt a Sinocentric view of the world. They are changing towards a more Taiwan-centric stance in some ways. But because of the colonial history of Japan, the country being the first to surge out of the region to be an international power (economically), and its rise of cultural influence (which I think is most important), Taiwanese have undergone a sustained Japanese fever, and recently a Korean fever. This is mostly among the younger generations who do not remember nor care about WWII. Also, Japan has an ongoing conflict with China, too, and as a result, doesn't treat Taiwan poorly these days. And China plays up every risible Japanese incident.

As for Korea, that they have never really gone out of their peninsula (though for a long time they were the dominant sea traders in North Asia) to war and to occupy others, they do not engender the same kind of hate as the Japanese. Not despicable, violent brutes that is. North Korea being a playground of some sorts for the Sino-Soviet drama for a long time, adn being Communists, of course, they don't figure into the CPC's and people's despised races. I do not think that feelings towards Korea and the people tend towards the similar kind of hate, but they are surely not well liked. I would say that among people I've met and know, there is more uniform displeasure with them than with the Japanese, who provoke a wide range of emotional responses, trending positive. THe main points of contention with the Koreans are their insularity, arrogance, and nationalism, all of which are interrelated. I think that combination doesn't win many friends anywhere. EG I suppose the USA doesn't really have the first or third, though it could be argued otherwise, but even the perception of the second has caused a great deal of problems.

The relationship between China, Korea, and Japan is quite interestnig. For quite some time, much between Japan and China went through Korea.

Also, you are somewhat right abuot the US-KMT-CPC dynamic. Well before 1971, when the PRC took the ROC's seat in the UN, the ruling party in Taiwan was dissuaded from launching a strike to reclaim the mainland by various nations which wanted to avoid a hot war. This wasn't support for the PRC, but a pragmatic stance - te mindset continued and still does. Support for Taiwan has manifested itself in many other ways, but no one wants a destabilising situation to erupt in the Taiwan strait.