What is the deal with is Kirby Allison’s business model?

[TheChihuahua]

No real ill-will on my part - I'm sure he's a decent person underneath it all, but I do find it foolish when someone talks about clothing rules in relation to fitting in with "the right sort of people," when traditionally that same someone would have been thoroughly rebuffed from those circles/formal events. It's one thing to talk about clothing style and how to look better, but I find the idea of mimicry in order to signal taste... well, distasteful.

I've never bought anything from him, but judging from these reviews it seems he delivers.

maybe I am missing it, but I don’t see a lot of that from Kirby. He seems to be more about quality and well made goods rather than a rules hound. He has plenty of loafers and non-traditional colored shoes that he wears with suits. Not like he’s always advocating London evening wear and looking down upon brown or brogued shoes or blue shirts.

I’m not all about the whole “these are the rules” nerds. Most come off as people who picked up some formal wear book from a half century+ ago and thinks those are some hard fast rules without regard to how times have changed. If Kirby were like that, I don’t think I would enjoy his content very much.

 

[TheChihuahua]

thanks

I guess what Im wondering is brushing clothes a lost art that still has modern merit or was it jettisoned for good reason and not just because modern people are wasteful slobs, etc

I hate dry cleaning by the way, so the idea of this as an alternative is appealing

Im Not sure the answer to that. I didn’t know that garment brushing was a past thing?

 

[Texasmade]

maybe I am missing it, but I don’t see a lot of that from Kirby. He seems to be more about quality and well made goods rather than a rules hound. He has plenty of loafers and non-traditional colored shoes that he wears with suits. Not like he’s always advocating London evening wear and looking down upon brown or brogued shoes or blue shirts.

I’m not all about the whole “these are the rules” nerds. Most come off as people who picked up some formal wear book from a half century+ ago and thinks those are some hard fast rules without regard to how times have changed. If Kirby were like that, I don’t think I would enjoy his content very much.

He does have a dislike for wearing shorts. Idk how he survives in the Texas summers not putting on shorts occasionally.

 

[madhat]

He does have a dislike for wearing shorts. Idk how he survives in the Texas summers not putting on shorts occasionally.

Linens. And staying inside or in wind.

 

[dieworkwear]

thanks

I guess what Im wondering is brushing clothes a lost art that still has modern merit or was it jettisoned for good reason and not just because modern people are wasteful slobs, etc

I hate dry cleaning by the way, so the idea of this as an alternative is appealing

A clothes brush is about the closest thing you can get to an actual wardrobe essential, assuming you have tailored clothing in your wardrobe (and even then, if you don't, might still be an essential). Dirt and dust can really wreck fibers. If you wear raw denim jeans with a cuff, and you don't brush the cuffs out every so often, you will see the debris cut through the parts of the cuff where debris has collected.

Most people send their tailored clothing out for a cleaning maybe once a season, if at all. I know many people who don't clean their tailored clothing for years. A good dry cleaner can be very gentle, but most people don't have good dry cleaners near them. Whether you have a good dry cleaner or not, a clothing brush can keep clothing fresh in between professional cleanings -- and it's even more important if you don't have a good dry cleaner, as you'll way to dry clean even less.

I once asked a Savile Row tailor if the rumors are true about dry cleaning. That it's terrible for tailoring. He said yes, but the market has gotten so bad, there's not much you can do. You have to clean your clothes. If you have very high end stuff, you can send things to Rave FabriCARE in Arizona. They're a much better dry cleaner and own their own machinery. They also offer a sponge and press.

Kent in England sells good clothing brushes. Kirby's are likely better than those, but even a basic Kent will do. It's really just about how much you want to spend on these things. I think the fine accessories are nice, but they shouldn't get in the way of building a good and practical wardrobe. Sometimes I see guys invest a lot into shoe care products and fancy dress shoes because there's this online culture that has been built around such items -- like fountain pens, watches, and fragrances. But it sometimes feels disconnected from the person's wardrobe. I think it would be better to spend a little more on quality tailoring than eek out the marginal improvement in things like shoe care products and clothing brushes.

 

[classicalthunde]

Hate to beat a dead horse here, but Kirby's Kent CS1B brush is literally almost 3x what it costs on Kent's site at $145 USD vs. 40 GBP (shipped to USA, ex VAT)

I understand marginal mark ups for videos and added value that Kirby provides via YouTube or events, and I do prefer to building a relationship with who i buy stuff from...but that is quite the mark up for the exact same product

 

[dieworkwear]

Hate to beat a dead horse here, but Kirby's Kent CS1B brush is literally almost 3x what it costs on Kent's site at $145 USD vs. 40 GBP (shipped to USA, ex VAT)

I understand mark ups for videos and added value that Kirby provides via YouTube, and I do prefer to shop small...but that is quite the mark up for the exact same product

I don't know anything about Kirby's business model, pricing, or wholesale costs. It's not really any of my business. But to again beat a dead horse, these sorts of comparisons aren't fair.

You can say the same of almost every imported Japanese product in the United States. Take Japanese denim, which you can import here to the US for a much cheaper price than what you'd pay at a high-end denim store. The same is true for many Japanese labels (like casualwear labels).

This specific issue is specific to Japan because Japanese companies have a lower mark-up. The wholesale to retail mark up is something like 1.5x, whereas US mark-up is 2.5x. This is not because US retailers are greedy -- indeed, many of them are going out of business even at that mark-up. But if a US company imports that item from Japan, they don't get a much lower price than what Japanese retailers pay. They also have to pay for shipping and unfair import costs. It costs you almost nothing to import something from Japan because of unfair trade rules (duties generally set in above $800). But a retailer has to pay import costs on their whole shipment, costs which are then passed on to you.

I'm sure UK/ EU shipments have different issues, but there are probably still issues. I know some retailers complain of VAT dumping, which cuts into their profitability/ ability to compete.

My general point is that consumers are in a very poor position to evaluate these things. There are business issues that they know little about. Personally think people should just support the companies that bring the value, but in the whole sense of value. If the price exceeds what you're willing to support, just don't shop there.

 

[dieworkwear]

US retailer Bayside Brush also sells it for $82, which is higher than what you'd pay directly from Kent.

Buy Luxury Brushes, Combs, Hair Accessories & More | Bayside Brush Co.

Your luxury beauty outlet for hair brushes, combs, hair accessories, manicure tools, shaving, and more! We carry brands like French-made Camila Paris hair accessories, British-made Kent hair brushes and combs, Camila Solingen manicure tools, Giorgio hair brushes and combs, and others. Free U.S...

baysidebrushco.com

Some of these international shipping rules just don't make any sense. It would behoove the company to get it under control in this marketplace, as consumers are apt to comparison shop all the time.

Some companies, such as EG Cappelli, did the same thing to ASW. They sold their items for less than what ASW could sell their ties for. And then ultimately ASW dropped their line.

I suppose no one buys ties now, so it doesn't make a difference. But this sort of game just seems like a losing situation for all involved -- the manufacturer, the retailer, and the consumer. You see this happening a lot nowadays with GYW shoes too.

 

[classicalthunde]

This specific issue is specific to Japan because Japanese companies have a lower mark-up. The wholesale to retail mark up is something like 1.5x, whereas US mark-up is 2.5x. This is not because US retailers are greedy -- indeed, many of them are going out of business even at that mark-up. But if a US company imports that item from Japan, they don't get a much lower price than what Japanese retailers pay. They also have to pay for shipping and unfair import costs. It costs you almost nothing to import something from Japan because of unfair trade rules (duties generally set in above $800). But a retailer has to pay import costs on their whole shipment, costs which are then passed on to you.

I'm sure UK/ EU shipments have different issues, but there are probably still issues.

My general point is that consumers are in a very poor position to evaluate these things. There are business issues that they know little about. Personally think people should just support the companies that bring the value, but in the whole sense of value. If the price exceeds what you're willing to support, just don't shop there.

@dieworkwear I do appreciate your input and insight here. I came at this meandering thread originally through a question deliberately rather than an 'I hate the Hanger Project' rant because it genuinely puzzled me as to some of the significant pricing differences at his site vs. others for the same product.

On the whole, I do in fact like Kirby's channel and the products he offers, but the price difference is a bridge too far for me...but it does help clear up some of the preconceived misunderstandings I had about drop-shipping, etc.

 

[Megakurth]

A clothes brush is about the closest thing you can get to an actual wardrobe essential, assuming you have tailored clothing in your wardrobe (and even then, if you don't, might still be an essential). Dirt and dust can really wreck fibers. If you wear raw denim jeans with a cuff, and you don't brush the cuffs out every so often, you will see the debris cut through the parts of the cuff where debris has collected.

Most people send their tailored clothing out for a cleaning maybe once a season, if at all. I know many people who don't clean their tailored clothing for years. A good dry cleaner can be very gentle, but most people don't have good dry cleaners near them. Whether you have a good dry cleaner or not, a clothing brush can keep clothing fresh in between professional cleanings -- and it's even more important if you don't have a good dry cleaner, as you'll way to dry clean even less.

I once asked a Savile Row tailor if the rumors are true about dry cleaning. That it's terrible for tailoring. He said yes, but the market has gotten so bad, there's not much you can do. You have to clean your clothes. If you have very high end stuff, you can send things to Rave FabriCARE in Arizona. They're a much better dry cleaner and own their own machinery. They also offer a sponge and press.

Kent in England sells good clothing brushes. Kirby's are likely better than those, but even a basic Kent will do. It's really just about how much you want to spend on these things. I think the fine accessories are nice, but they shouldn't get in the way of building a good and practical wardrobe. Sometimes I see guys invest a lot into shoe care products and fancy dress shoes because there's this online culture that has been built around such items -- like fountain pens, watches, and fragrances. But it sometimes feels disconnected from the person's wardrobe. I think it would be better to spend a little more on quality tailoring than eek out the marginal improvement in things like shoe care products and clothing brushes.

I can say that if Kirby offered a high end cleaning service for suits (like a Rave) that id trust him and consider it, despite the fact that I live in NYC and SHOULD have access to a half decent dry cleaner... but well... I think I’ve said my peace on the separate dry cleaning in NYC thread...

 

[dieworkwear]

@dieworkwear I do appreciate your input and insight here. I came at this meandering thread originally through a question deliberately rather than an 'I hate the Hanger Project' rant because it genuinely puzzled me as to some of the significant pricing differences at his site vs. others for the same product.

On the whole, I do in fact like Kirby's channel and the products he offers, but the price difference is a bridge too far for me...but it does help clear up some of the preconceived misunderstandings I had about drop-shipping, etc.

For me, Brian Goulet's video is the best I've seen on this subject, because this issue is rife in the fountain pen market. Goulet Pen Company, which is a fountain pen retailer, often has higher prices than what you'd pay at Amazon, eBay, or a retailer abroad (many pen retailers on Amazon and eBay are also just normal pen retailers, not second-hand sellers).

I realize the video is long (30 mins), but I think it's worth watching for people who are interested in this issue. I hear the same themes come up when I talk to retailers. Sometimes someone has a sweetheart deal with a distributor or factory, so not everyone is paying the same wholesale price. Sometimes there are different products for different markets. Sometimes there are different mark-ups for different markets. Sometimes there are unfair trade rules. Sometimes a company has a different cost structure -- higher real estate costs, marketing, content creation, photography, etc. As Brian notes, he's just hoping that, if you find out about a pen from him, you buy it from him, because the market can't survive on just these no-name sellers.

Brian has been credited with helping the fountain pen market grow beyond just the usual population of dusty nerds who hang out on Fountain Pen Network and other forums. The NYT did a story on him once.

Let the Fountain Pens Flow! (Published 2018)

In this coldly pixelated age, old-fashioned writing implements make a small but meaningful comeback.

www.nytimes.com

My general feeling on Kirby is that his very classic, gentleman way of approaching clothing doesn't necessarily resonate with me. It's just not how I think about clothing (and I'm not that focused on just classic style). But if he can bring more people into the fold, the entire market benefits. If he can help keep some of these flagging companies alive, then great. Perhaps one day someone starts off with Allen Edmonds and one day buy Carmina, Edward Green, and maybe even Nicholas Templeman's shoes. Lots of people get into this hobby through different entry points. The more people, the merrier.

From a biz perspective, I think Kirby would want to match easily Googlable prices, but sometimes this isn't possible for various reasons. I assume he knows that his competitors are cheaper.

I see a lot of people commenting on his videos, and he seems to get a lot of views. Some of those people may just be getting into clothes. Classic clothing is such a dying market, and so many companies are likely to close in the next year, I think it's important to get fresh faces. Sort of like what Brian has done with fountain pens (I picked up an interest in fountain pens many years ago because of his reviews).

 

[Waldo Jeffers]

A clothes brush is about the closest thing you can get to an actual wardrobe essential, assuming you have tailored clothing in your wardrobe (and even then, if you don't, might still be an essential). Dirt and dust can really wreck fibers. If you wear raw denim jeans with a cuff, and you don't brush the cuffs out every so often, you will see the debris cut through the parts of the cuff where debris has collected.

Most people send their tailored clothing out for a cleaning maybe once a season, if at all. I know many people who don't clean their tailored clothing for years. A good dry cleaner can be very gentle, but most people don't have good dry cleaners near them. Whether you have a good dry cleaner or not, a clothing brush can keep clothing fresh in between professional cleanings -- and it's even more important if you don't have a good dry cleaner, as you'll way to dry clean even less.

I once asked a Savile Row tailor if the rumors are true about dry cleaning. That it's terrible for tailoring. He said yes, but the market has gotten so bad, there's not much you can do. You have to clean your clothes. If you have very high end stuff, you can send things to Rave FabriCARE in Arizona. They're a much better dry cleaner and own their own machinery. They also offer a sponge and press.

Kent in England sells good clothing brushes. Kirby's are likely better than those, but even a basic Kent will do. It's really just about how much you want to spend on these things. I think the fine accessories are nice, but they shouldn't get in the way of building a good and practical wardrobe. Sometimes I see guys invest a lot into shoe care products and fancy dress shoes because there's this online culture that has been built around such items -- like fountain pens, watches, and fragrances. But it sometimes feels disconnected from the person's wardrobe. I think it would be better to spend a little more on quality tailoring than eek out the marginal improvement in things like shoe care products and clothing brushes.

this is super helpful, thanks

I don’t have access to a good dry cleaner

my wardrobe isnt anything amazing but I don’t mind (in fact prefer) taking care of my own stuff as much as possible

 

[TheChihuahua]

@dieworkwear I do appreciate your input and insight here. I came at this meandering thread originally through a question deliberately rather than an 'I hate the Hanger Project' rant because it genuinely puzzled me as to some of the significant pricing differences at his site vs. others for the same product.

On the whole, I do in fact like Kirby's channel and the products he offers, but the price difference is a bridge too far for me...but it does help clear up some of the preconceived misunderstandings I had about drop-shipping, etc.

so if you want to support his channel, don’t buy products from him that you can purchase elsewhere. Purchase items unique to his shop.
- the horn collar stays are a good item at $35. Instead of having a bunch of collar stays, I find it’s better to have one or two nice pair (so you remember to take them out of the collars after each wear!). $35 for an item you will use 200 times a year is a good price
- his shoe horn selection is nice. Frivolous? Sure. Necessary? Probably not tk that extent. But they are unique, will last a lifetime, will be used daily, and are fun.
- his socks are fantastic. $35 for those socks are well worth it. The quality is well worth the cost compared to other alternatives.
- I love the el casco cigar cutter. Cigars cost enough money where I don’t mind spending a bit on the tool responsible for making sure the cut is quality.
- next time you purchase a tie, maybe look to Kirby? His ties are competitively priced.
- of course the hangers are worth it.

if you don’t want to pay a markup to support the brand, that’s fair. He has plenty of items unique to his site that you can purchase.

 

[TheChihuahua]

this is super helpful, thanks

I don’t have access to a good dry cleaner

my wardrobe isnt anything amazing but I don’t mind (in fact prefer) taking care of my own stuff as much as possible

im in the same situation. No dry cleaner. My garment brush gets good use.

 

[Nobilis Animus]

It would be better to wash your suits by hand and learn how to press them than send them off to a dry-cleaner, in my experience.

I'd literally eat my hat in preference, for then it might still serve a useful purpose.