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Voxsartoria's Weekly WAYWRN Subjective and Totally Unfair Digest

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by voxsartoria, Feb 13, 2009.

  1. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I don't buy it. PG's use of color and texture is exceptional, and he has the photo skills and camera to show it off in a way that many don't. I liked those elements of his wardrobe even when I wasn't crazy about his Armani. Further, PG's lifestyles pics have changed WAYW as we know it. I don't think we need to give credit to Vox for PG's accomplishments.

    That said, I do think Vox is partly responsible for the meta-discussion of PG lately. But I think we'd see PG groupies even if Vox weren't around.


    Sigh. I'm going to get attacked for being argumentative here, but here's what I'm saying:

    Whatever PG's inherent style (very high in my estimation), some admiration will inevitably be sparked by external factors. Other posters have already commented on the groupthink-nurturing, cult-like tendency of the forum. While there may be good reasons to like something, some may like it for reasons other than those.
     
  2. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I have resisted a knit tie to this point, but I now own 6 pairs of white jeans and white pants...that I did not own prior to SF. I always liked the way they looked, but was self-conscious about buying a pair. So, I guess the group think here did push me in that direction.

    I think I'm just greedy. I want all those things in WAYW, but I want more Il Vecchio and somebody in a strong military cut and someone who will show us stuff we've never seen before.
     
  3. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Sigh. I'm going to get attacked for being argumentative here, but here's what I'm saying:

    Whatever PG's inherent style (very high in my estimation), some admiration will inevitably be sparked by external factors. Other posters have already commented on the groupthink-nurturing, cult-like tendency of the forum. While there may be good reasons to like something, some may like it for reasons other than those.


    This is an arguable point, which you have already made up your mind about. OK, you have your opinion, others have ours. It's not provable either way. Yet you want to go on arguing about it. What would you call that?

    I am slow to believe that things that are liked here are not genuinely liked. It frankly always strikes me as cattiness and i-Spite when someone says, "Oh, you just copied that from X, loser" or "You only like that because Y praised it."

    You of all people should appreciate that, since you are such a frequent target of that "argument."
     
  4. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Sigh. I'm going to get attacked for being argumentative here, but here's what I'm saying: Whatever PG's inherent style (very high in my estimation), some admiration will inevitably be sparked by external factors. Other posters have already commented on the groupthink-nurturing, cult-like tendency of the forum. While there may be good reasons to like something, some may like it for reasons other than those.
    I hear you. It's very difficult to discuss the effect of someone like PG on the forum without sounding like you're attacking PG. I was running into the same problem earlier in the thread. For the record, I think PG is great. It's interesting to see how the forum's tastes ebb and flow. SF now is very different than how it was when I came. I suppose I don't need to complain about uniformity in WAYW; in a couple years, it will probably be completely different. (For extra credit, compare and contrast this with AA.) I do find the cult-like tendencies rather fascinating. Maybe it's because people arrive with only the vaguest notions of what they like, then shape those tastes through the forum's filters. I don't, however, think this means people are liking stuff only because they're told to like it. They like it because it looks good.
     
  5. Holdfast

    Holdfast Senior member

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    This could be an entirely new thread. "Style" seems like it has no borders to me. It doesn't just stop at the clothes, but bleeds over into your mannerisms, personality, your other material possessions, artistic or athletic pursuits, etc. It's kinda the whole package.

    Also, Holdfast I like your combo in this weeks round-up. It's got your signature flair but a bit more restrained than usual. The mint shirt is nice.


    Thanks.

    It could indeed be a thread of its own, and I agree with a lot of what you say. I do strongly believe that the most stylish people have taken the time to think about the image they project. Not necessarily in quite such stark cold terms, but they've certainly done some analysis of what works for them and I bet a large percentage HAVE done it very consciously.

    Now, after a while, it can become second nature and so SEEM effortless. And in a way, because they've done it for so long, it is for them. But there has been active thought there, at some stage.

    This, I think, is a subset of the emergence of a StyleForum style. This would make an interesting discussion in itself, but I suspect it would just get mired down in the usual tired talk of groupthink.

    Referencing my previous paragraph, I think this is what separates the stylish in the WAYW thread from the also-rans. I think you're right that we parasitically feed upon one another for ideas & concepts that work, but I think (hope?) that the guys whose style I dig the most have incorporated some of those concepts in a way that expresses their own narrative about themselves rather than merely seeking SF approval or a superficial checkbox exercise in nice clothes.

    I'm just pointing out that the appeal of a particular person's style may have something to do with the appeal of particular observers as well as the person himself.

    I think it's a very fair point to make. And in that vein...

    It's OK, we're only worshipping PG until vox comes down from the mountain with a fresh set of commandments... [​IMG]

    I'm one of the most frequent posters, and I will acknowledge that the whole drill is pretty strange.

    True, that. [​IMG]
     
  6. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    I think I'm just greedy. I want all those things in WAYW, but I want more Il Vecchio and somebody in a strong military cut and someone who will show us stuff we've never seen before.

    RSS can give you both, in spades...but more soft drape plus equestrian, rather than military.

    You don't recall his stuff on AAAC?


    - B
     
  7. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    RSS can give you both, in spades...but more soft drape plus equestrian, rather than military.

    You don't recall his stuff on AAAC?


    - B


    I do. But that was a thousand years ago. Someone get that man a new camera.
     
  8. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Referencing my previous paragraph, I think this is what separates the stylish in the WAYW thread from the also-rans.

    HF, you are a prime example of someone who has stuck to his style even when it defies the forum's tastes. Kudos for that.
     
  9. Holdfast

    Holdfast Senior member

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    HF, you are a prime example of someone who has stuck to his style even when it defies the forum's tastes. Kudos for that.

    Thanks. I can be a stubborn bugger at times...

    ... though in truth, I have changed quite a lot (esp. with regard to fit & quality of garments; not so much in colours I guess), since joining SF. And largely, I'm grateful for that. The remaining traces of individuality are just particularly resistant stains on the nearly pristine newly blank canvas... [​IMG]
     
  10. Mr. Moo

    Mr. Moo Senior member

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    Doc, are my shorts and folded up pants not enough for you to chew on? Must fcuknu start posting again?
     
  11. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    I do find the cult-like tendencies rather fascinating. Maybe it's because people arrive with only the vaguest notions of what they like, then shape those tastes through the forum's filters. I don't, however, think this means people are liking stuff only because they're told to like it. They like it because it looks good.

    I don't buy that there are "cult-like tendencies" unless we choose to debase genuine likes that people happen to share or develop into something pejorative.

    Feature convergence is actually pretty minimal, and the degree of conformity is less apparent in photographs here than in, say, most work environments.

    I attribute this to a degree of eccentricity that causes men to sign up for, read, and then produce content...discursive or diaristic...for a social site centered on clothing.

    The degree and type of eccentricity is not greater or less than men and women who spend time and effort on the myriad topical social sites on the internet...cars...bodybuilding...politics...whatever...but the ones here are eccentric about clothes.


    - B
     
  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    This is an arguable point, which you have already made up your mind about. OK, you have your opinion, others have ours. It's not provable either way. Yet you want to go on arguing about it. What would you call that?

    I was just clarifying my point-of-view because it didn't sound like it had been successfully communicated. All I'm saying is that social influences can shape our opinions and make it very difficult to tell why we really like or dislike something. I don't think you deny this, because you've opined that part of the forum's reaction to me may be a result of that fact.

    I hear you. It's very difficult to discuss the effect of someone like PG on the forum without sounding like you're attacking PG. I was running into the same problem earlier in the thread. For the record, I think PG is great.

    It's true: things get emotional very quickly. I think it's pretty obvious that discussions of style will inevitably be colored by personal and emotional views.

    I do find the cult-like tendencies rather fascinating. Maybe it's because people arrive with only the vaguest notions of what they like, then shape those tastes through the forum's filters. I don't, however, think this means people are liking stuff only because they're told to like it. They like it because it looks good.

    I think this conclusion goes too far (as does the opposite). Social influence is a real thing and it tends to work in less-than-transparent ways: I would never discount it so completely so quickly.
     
  13. SkinnyGoomba

    SkinnyGoomba Senior member

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    I think what really pulls in the crowds are that when you're out on your own you have a perception of what is 'well dressed' but you find it hard to achieve. When you show up here you are originally well out of the league of these posters. They pull you in, give you solid feedback (very harsh at times) and you become a bit more then you could have ever done on your own.
     
  14. PandArts

    PandArts Senior member

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    Being a daily poster for nearly a year now I have my favourite posters (PG amung them) and many of them have styles vastly different from my own. I guess what it is that I admire is not what type/style of clothes they wear but how they wear them. Further, as a designer, I tend to look at things from almost purely a visual standpoint and tend to gravitate towards those who combine colours, patterns, and textures with an almost fine-arts talent.

    It was the diversity of styles that first drew me to SF and it's what has kept me here. Other than being hopelessly addicted to the whole process of taking pics of myself on the sly so that my GF or passerby won't notice and then posting them of WAYWRN for a little ego boost before it's totally pummled into the ground by my boss during the rest of the day [​IMG]
     
  15. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    All I'm saying is that social influences can shape our opinions and make it very difficult to tell why we really like or dislike something.

    Alright, let's say that you are right.

    Do you think that this is the case with the degree of acceptance or approval of PG's informalizing touches in his tailored clothing ensembles?

    You are a fair person to ask since I penned the terms "Foofed" and "Foofy" to describe certain things, particularly, the unbuttoned OCBD collar.


    - B
     
  16. SkinnyGoomba

    SkinnyGoomba Senior member

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    I tend to think that he started to do the unbuttoned collar as influenced by foof, which helps my above point.
     
  17. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    I tend to think that he started to do the unbuttoned collar as influenced by foof, which helps my above point.

    No, I think PG has done that for quite some time, maybe even before posting pictures.

    It's a more subtle artifact of the well-known Agnelli-isms, and I doubt anyone seen doing it here adopted it from any one else on SF.

    Doc also Foofs his collar from time to time.


    - B
     
  18. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Alright, let's say that you are right.

    Do you think that this is the case with the degree of acceptance or approval of PG's informalizing touches in his tailored clothing ensembles?

    You are a fair person to ask since I penned the terms "Foofed" and "Foofy" to describe certain things, particularly, the unbuttoned OCBD collar.


    With respect to PG? I dunno. I like the way he dresses, but who knows what forces are converging to form that opinion in me? I don't think there's a measuring stick for this sort of thing. The most that can be said is that external influences can affect how we judge things, even when we do not recognize those influences. Moreover, the nature of such influences is that they are not easily recognizable. Both entirely discounting the influence of those influences and assuming that only those influences operate to form our opinions would be folly. Everyone wants to believe he's apart from the herd.
     
  19. Mr. Moo

    Mr. Moo Senior member

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    No, I think PG has done that for quite some time, maybe even before posting pictures.

    It's a more subtle artifact of the well-known Agnelli-isms, and I doubt anyone seen doing it here adopted it from any one else on SF.

    Doc also Foofs his collar from time to time.


    - B


    Regarding the Foofed collar - I tried this look in "real life" and had four people comment on it with the same sentiment: "why is that unbuttoned?"

    Sometimes things that are viewed as cool or hip or trendy on SF are viewed as ridiculous, lame and stupid in real life.
     
  20. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Sometimes things that are viewed as cool or hip or trendy on SF are viewed as ridiculous, lame and stupid in real life.

    The real question is whether this matters. It's possible that 'real life' people are just less well-informed or socially directed toward a competing norm. Or maybe your collar looked stupid.
     

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