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Voxsartoria's Weekly WAYWRN Subjective and Totally Unfair Digest

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by voxsartoria, Feb 13, 2009.

  1. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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  2. james_timothy

    james_timothy Senior member

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    In other words: when norms are tossed out for new norms, but without good reason, I think the old norms should be restored since they, at least, rest on experience and less risky magnitudes of change. I think, we have come, as a society, to value change in and of itself (thank you, Mr. President)--I view this as a sort of intellectual disease because it is costly (destabilizing norms that don't necessarily need destabilizing), and it distracts us from changing norms for good reasons.

    What you are lamenting isn't the variation in the nature of the changes but the acceleration of hypermodernity. Too much info is making us loose control and some find it a cause of anguish while others think it is exhilarating.

    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    Well, then, back to what I found interesting, back on pages 10 and 13.

    It is at least arguable that this idea of accelerating change is wrong. There were far bigger changes in the 50 years from 1900-1950 then from 1950-2000, including the dissolution of a 400 year old world empire and the electrification of cities. The last fifty years have been relatively stable in everything but computers and population.

    I'm still trying to get my mind around the idea that somewhere in the 1930's were year 0 in Sartorialist History. Perhaps when the world found its ground shifting under their feet it latched onto the myth of the Upperclass and the images of the AA crystalize this aspirational idea.

    I'm also fascinated by the idea that Ralph Lauren capitalized (literally) on this in the Purple Label line.
     
  3. LabelKing

    LabelKing Senior member

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    Maybe a turquoise Dupioni, or Goering powder-blue.
     
  4. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    I'm also fascinated by the idea that Ralph Lauren capitalized (literally) on this in the Purple Label line.

    Next week, I might wear a RLPL chalk stripe flannel by Chester Barrie from the first year of the collection...if so, I'll post it in the regular WAYWRN.


    - B
     
  5. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    The last fifty years have been relatively stable in everything but computers and population.

    You neglect the revolution in self-tanning products.


    - B
     
  6. james_timothy

    james_timothy Senior member

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    Mere fluff. As is the space race and polyester.
     
  7. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Senior member

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    Well, then, back to what I found interesting, back on pages 10 and 13. It is at least arguable that this idea of accelerating change is wrong. There were far bigger changes in the 50 years from 1900-1950 then from 1950-2000, including the dissolution of a 400 year old world empire and the electrification of cities. The last fifty years have been relatively stable in everything but computers and population. I'm still trying to get my mind around the idea that somewhere in the 1930's were year 0 in Sartorialist History. Perhaps when the world found its ground shifting under their feet it latched onto the myth of the Upperclass and the images of the AA crystalize this aspirational idea. I'm also fascinated by the idea that Ralph Lauren capitalized (literally) on this in the Purple Label line.
    In recent times, those AA/Esky plates were referred to publicly mainly by FLusser. Of course designers pore over history (all history) for ideas and I am sure they refer to them amongst other things. But they are not year 0, that's an opinion.
     
  8. james_timothy

    james_timothy Senior member

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    Year 0 also means there is a before as well as an after, and 0 marks are always arbitrary.

    But Ann Demeulemeester's historical pickings aren't in the main line of men's clothing, whereas Manton made a strong case that there is nothing really out of the ordinary in many of the AA/Esky drawings. Fuuma had to argue that is was everything is sum that was outlandish, but then, these were fashion shots. It just seems like the main line variations have been Thom Brownesqe re-interpretations of minor details.
     
  9. eg1

    eg1 Senior member

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    "Dear, is that a Foof?" [hands over binoculars]

    "Hmmm...big head...resplendent plumage...I think you've finally spotted one, dear."

    "I'll check it off in the book." [takes back binoculars]

    "Oh my...what is that big, lanky one doing with the large rabbit?" [hands over binoculars again]

    "I don't know, but it looks ugly. The rabbit is also a bit odd...it appears to be wearing a waistcoat with...rabbits on it. Is that in our book?"

    "Oh, here they are...they're in the New Yorker chapter, in the section on exotic, infiltrating fauna. Apparently, the tall one's native range is the Pacific coast."

    [scans edge of forest] "Oh, there's that Kunkle again. With the sun out, it's head really gleams."

    "What's he doing?"

    "Need I say?"

    [laughs] "He must do that five times a day."

    "At least."

    "Oh, here comes dopey."

    "Come on in, D. Here's an extra set of binocs. One lump or two?"


    - B


    It's the ones you cannot see that ought to worry yourself and the missus. If you listen closely you might just hear them toiling underground: teeming, misshapen and tireless Morlocks -- mining and sapping in the darkness ... [​IMG]
     
  10. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Senior member

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    Year 0 also means there is a before as well as an after, and 0 marks are always arbitrary. But Ann Demeulemeester's historical pickings aren't in the main line of men's clothing, whereas Manton made a strong case that there is nothing really out of the ordinary in many of the AA/Esky drawings. Fuuma had to argue that is was everything is sum that was outlandish, but then, these were fashion shots. It just seems like the main line variations have been Thom Brownesqe re-interpretations of minor details.
    There isn't anything inherently wrong with the AA/Esky plates, rather it is how they are approached, interpreted and applied. A fundamental element of design and taste is to borrow and refresh. There are literalists, LITERALISTS as well as people who who panic if they have to make a decision. People can often recognize the fruits of taste and successful interpretation even if they cannot achieve it themselves. Doubtless you know people who can appreciate humor or a joke but are not themselves witty. The suit is a young historically. The 1930s were the first time there was a dynamic international exchange of styles, fabrics, colors what have you which in turn served as a bounty for a magazine or catalog to codify. The 1930s are neither evil nor supreme, they possess plenty of things to adopt and just as many to discard. If one has or wants to develop a sense for clothes, they need to figure out which is which. This is a continuing and hopefully stimulating experience.
     
  11. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I'm still trying to get my mind around the idea that somewhere in the 1930's were year 0 in Sartorialist History. Perhaps when the world found its ground shifting under their feet it latched onto the myth of the Upperclass and the images of the AA crystalize this aspirational idea.

    Well, to be fair, that's not what I'm saying. I don't thing there was a 'year 0'. Norms develop and change over time--that's always been the case. Rather, I am claiming that the latter half of the twentieth century brought with it a sea change in popular philosophical thinking (namely, postmodernsm). Thus, the nature of many of the the changes has been fundamentally different.
     
  12. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    There isn't anything inherently wrong with the AA/Esky plates, rather it is how they are approached, interpreted and applied. A fundamental element of design and taste is to borrow and refresh. There are literalists, LITERALISTS as well as people who who panic if they have to make a decision. People can often recognize the fruits of taste and successful interpretation even if they cannot achieve it themselves. Doubtless you know people who can appreciate humor or a joke but are not themselves witty.

    Can someone quote this to make sure Buffy sees it? Thanks.

    Carl: you say this all the time. Over and over and over and over. But you never say who you mean. Who are these people? Are they posters on SF? Are they people you know personally? Friends? Collegues? People in the clothing trade whom you interview?

    I have read this assertion from you hundreds of times, and I still have no idea who you are talking about. Could you please clear it up for once?
     
  13. grimslade

    grimslade Senior member

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    Can someone quote this to make sure Buffy sees it? Thanks.

    Carl: you say this all the time. Over and over and over and over. But you never say who you mean. Who are these people? Are they posters on SF? Are they people you know personally? Friends? Collegues? People in the clothing trade whom you interview?

    I have read this assertion from you hundreds of times, and I still have no idea who you are talking about. Could you please clear it up for once?


    Just hit ignore.

    Oh, wait, he has me on ignore too, so he won't see this either.
     
  14. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    It's the ones you cannot see that ought to worry yourself and the missus. If you listen closely you might just hear them toiling underground: teeming, misshapen and tireless Morlocks -- mining and sapping in the darkness ... [​IMG]

    As you recall, the Eloi first serve as food for the Morlocks, and then devolve over time into plant eaters who hop...much like, uhm, rabbits. Then, they are snuffed out by creatures that look like giant centipedes.

    Good times.


    - B
     
  15. binge

    binge Senior member

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    Here they come to snuff the rooster
    Yeah here come the rooster, yeah
    You know he aint gonna die
    No, no, no, ya know he aint gonna die
     
  16. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Senior member

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    Here they come to snuff the rooster Yeah here come the rooster, yeah You know he aint gonna die No, no, no, ya know he aint gonna die
    When the rooster is a paladin, he's cock of the block and invincible [​IMG] This is one of those Tammy Faye squares, Senior Fresco likes
     
  17. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    There is definitly a lighter than navy dupioni. Have a look at Draper's.

    Flusser had this one. He had three shades of dupioni: tan, elephant gray, and a slate/AF blue. I really, really wanted the latter. Alan wore it in the shop the day I tried to order it. He talked me out of it. Said it was impractical. A Palm Beach/man of leisure suit. I never forgot it, and eventually got a similar color in mohair.


    Before it changed hands, the owner of D. Singer Textiles in NYC got me a chart of high quality duppioni silks to choose from. I chose a medium grey and a silvery grey for a sports jacket. I almost chose a bright blue too but I already have a bright blue jacket. I mention this because there were a lot of nice colors on the card and many shades of blue. It was from Italy. If I get a chance I will inspect the fabrics to see if a maker's tag is stapled to it.

    Thank you, you two. When I was at my local tailor, he had a book with shantungs that had the requisite slubbiness, but the colors and book looked like it was for women's wear (there was also lace, georgettes, etc. in there). Mohair may be a good alternative in terms of getting surface interest. This would be for a straight-up DB blazer, gilt buttons and all.

    --Andre
     
  18. james_timothy

    james_timothy Senior member

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    Rather, I am claiming that the latter half of the twentieth century brought with it a sea change in popular philosophical thinking (namely, postmodernsm). Thus, the nature of many of the the changes has been fundamentally different.

    And I think that fundamentalness is all in the mind- not yours, but in the thinkers of the last couple of decades.

    At least I'd like to argue it- objectively, the most radical changes to the world happened in the first half of the 20th Century, not the second. Postmodernism might be a reaction to those changes, but it wasn't the cause of them. To make a caricature of it: Modernism as the single guiding idea of (my version of) the upper class died in the fires of WWI and WWII, not the heat of Vietnam or the Cold War.

    I like, FNB, the idea that the 30's was "the first time there was a dynamic international exchange of styles, fabrics, colors" but why then, during a great downturn in international trade?

    By the way, eg1, I think the Brits get Morlocks, Americans get zombies:
    [​IMG]
     
  19. binge

    binge Senior member

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    Darth Vader: All too easy.
     
  20. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Senior member

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    Thank you, you two. When I was at my local tailor, he had a book with shantungs that had the requisite slubbiness, but the colors and book looked like it was for women's wear (there was also lace, georgettes, etc. in there). Mohair may be a good alternative in terms of getting surface interest. This would be for a straight-up DB blazer, gilt buttons and all. --Andre
    I wouldnt do a mohair blazer a duppioni silk one would be very stylish. Umm, err, I wonder if Scabal or Dormeuil dont carry something like this, give em a call. They may not sell toy uo directly but theyll check for you. Holland and Sherry do a very nice navy duppioni in their formal book, too dark for your needs but still very nice. You might want to wait for Harrison's Sunbeam which wont look a thing like silk but will be a great summer blazer fabric.
     

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