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wasmisterfu

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23rmmd.jpg
 

happypebble

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This is an odd pair. I thought that the Allen Edmonds "Tom, Dick and Harry" model was a throwback from the 1960s...maybe as late as the 1970s. But this pair is clearly MUCH newer than that. With the model numbers starting with a 0, I'll assume these were a store special or custom order. Any other thoughts? (And even I can't squeeze into a AAA width shoe, so it won't ship.)

I had a pair of Tom, Dick and Harry from the "hand crafted world of AE" era. Nice enough shoes. Unfortunately the cobbler I took them to seriously botched the repair job, ruined them. Lesson learned, never going back there. Fortunately there are three or four other cobblers around here
 

wasmisterfu

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Went out into the world and braved the virus to pick up a new phone and pick up a few pairs from the cobbler, including my beloved Florsheim shell PTB with my first JR some conversion.

My excitement faded when I got the shoes home and checked them out closely.
View attachment 1422562 View attachment 1422563

My disappointment knows no bounds. :(
First world probalems for sure, but one cobbler to strike from the books.

At least the phone is nice.
So there’s a way to do a non-channeled bottom stitch and not have it look like ass, but it requires a bit of care, which there was, sadly, none applied in this case.

This brings me to a huge rant: I think channeling the bottom outsole stitch (given its a lock stitch) is freakin stupid.

When doing a super-high SPI outsole stitch, especially if you want it to look very neat on the top, you need to be able to focus on just having the top stitch land evenly, especially at mass-production line speeds. Back in the day, very few American manufactures spent time on channeling the bottom stitch, even for premium brands. Focus was always on how the top portion of the stitch looked:
o6ERrLU.jpg

~1953 Weyenberg’s
ZZAdvJu.jpg

~1957 French Shriner & Urner

Even in the 80’s, and up until 1998, AE didn’t channel the bottom stitch, mainly because it allowed for a nice evenly landed, clean high-spi top-stitch:
dCxZR14.jpg

1987 Dover (with channeled top stitch, not bottom)
nvmukfR.jpg

1993 MacNeil’s

On those MacNeil’s, on-top, every stitch lands exactly where it’s supposed to with the super-dense fudging, even if it’s a bit wonky on the bottom, because the person operating the outsole stitcher doesn’t have to worry about landing in the bottom channel:
UuUuV4x.jpg


But the day AE started with the damn channeled crap on the bottom, is the day the SPI dropped and the top portion of the stitch gets occasionally wonky, because at production line speed, it’s hard to get both top and bottom straight and even (so they dropped fudging altogether, shortly thereafter):
mCKx9WN.jpg

2000 Shelton’s - you can the stitch isn’t landing evenly in the fudging - a problem that started the day they did the bottom channel. But hey, it’s nice and even on the bottom (where I couldn’t care less - and the SPI has suffered):
79kqTEm.jpg


Now, is it possibly to do both? Sure, if it’s a slow day or the shoes are a special pair that the person operating the outsole stitcher spends some extra time on (or if you’re Florsheim in their prime, and simply had more outsole stitching stations, running slower - which is my theory on how they did both well). These circa 2013-14 AE Strawfut’s were sent through slowly, and it shows - very high SPI, even on top and bottom:
dyA9mWz.jpg

QRkJWV9.jpg

As you can see, compared to the Shelton’s, from 2000, when they were jamming out PC Shelton’s by the buttload (that’s a technical term, BTW), the Strawfut’s are far better executed.

And for that matter, so were my custom ordered 8221 Shelton’s from 2015, more than a 15 years later:
77t24Gi.jpg

0C0t6Pd.jpg

But this isn’t typical; and generally the result is, to get it even on top and bottom with speed, the SPI dropped (along with little details like / wheeling, fudging and top-channels, etc.).

This completes this OCD rant.
 

madhat

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So there’s a way to do a non-channeled bottom stitch and not have it look like ass, but it requires a bit of care, which there was, sadly, none applied in this case.

This brings me to a huge rant: I think channeling the bottom outsole stitch (given its a lock stitch) is freakin stupid.

When doing a super-high SPI outsole stitch, especially if you want it to look very neat on the top, you need to be able to focus on just having the top stitch land evenly, especially at mass-production line speeds. Back in the day, very few American manufactures spent time on channeling the bottom stitch, even for premium brands. Focus was always on how the top portion of the stitch looked:
o6ERrLU.jpg

~1953 Weyenberg’s
ZZAdvJu.jpg

~1957 French Shriner & Urner

Even in the 80’s, and up until 1998, AE didn’t channel the bottom stitch, mainly because it allowed for a nice evenly landed, clean high-spi top-stitch:
dCxZR14.jpg

1987 Dover (with channeled top stitch, not bottom)
nvmukfR.jpg

1993 MacNeil’s

On those MacNeil’s, on-top, every stitch lands exactly where it’s supposed to with the super-dense fudging, even if it’s a bit wonky on the bottom, because the person operating the outsole stitcher doesn’t have to worry about landing in the bottom channel:
UuUuV4x.jpg


But the day AE started with the damn channeled crap on the bottom, is the day the SPI dropped and the top portion of the stitch gets occasionally wonky, because at production line speed, it’s hard to get both top and bottom straight and even (so they dropped fudging altogether, shortly thereafter):
mCKx9WN.jpg

2000 Shelton’s - you can the stitch isn’t landing evenly in the fudging - a problem that started the day they did the bottom channel. But hey, it’s nice and even on the bottom (where I couldn’t care less - and the SPI has suffered):
79kqTEm.jpg


Now, is it possibly to do both? Sure, if it’s a slow day or the shoes are a special pair that the person operating the outsole stitcher spends some extra time on (or if you’re Florsheim in their prime, and simply had more outsole stitching stations, running slower - which is my theory on how they did both well). These circa 2013-14 AE Strawfut’s were sent through slowly, and it shows - very high SPI, even on top and bottom:
dyA9mWz.jpg

QRkJWV9.jpg

As you can see, compared to the Shelton’s, from 2000, when they were jamming out PC Shelton’s by the buttload (that’s a technical term, BTW), the Strawfut’s are far better executed.

And for that matter, so were my custom ordered 8221 Shelton’s from 2015, more than a 15 years later:
77t24Gi.jpg

0C0t6Pd.jpg

But this isn’t typical; and generally the result is, to get it even on top and bottom with speed, the SPI dropped (along with little details like / wheeling, fudging and top-channels, etc.).

This completes this OCD rant.
Thanks for the write up! I was thinking similar when I saw those, but you're much better at these. The bottom was definitely poorly executed, but I didn't fault the cobbler for not cutting a channel.
 

friendlygoz

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So there’s a way to do a non-channeled bottom stitch and not have it look like ass, but it requires a bit of care, which there was, sadly, none applied in this case.

This brings me to a huge rant: I think channeling the bottom outsole stitch (given its a lock stitch) is freakin stupid.

When doing a super-high SPI outsole stitch, especially if you want it to look very neat on the top, you need to be able to focus on just having the top stitch land evenly, especially at mass-production line speeds. Back in the day, very few American manufactures spent time on channeling the bottom stitch, even for premium brands. Focus was always on how the top portion of the stitch looked:
o6ERrLU.jpg

~1953 Weyenberg’s
ZZAdvJu.jpg

~1957 French Shriner & Urner

Even in the 80’s, and up until 1998, AE didn’t channel the bottom stitch, mainly because it allowed for a nice evenly landed, clean high-spi top-stitch:
dCxZR14.jpg

1987 Dover (with channeled top stitch, not bottom)
nvmukfR.jpg

1993 MacNeil’s

On those MacNeil’s, on-top, every stitch lands exactly where it’s supposed to with the super-dense fudging, even if it’s a bit wonky on the bottom, because the person operating the outsole stitcher doesn’t have to worry about landing in the bottom channel:
UuUuV4x.jpg


But the day AE started with the damn channeled crap on the bottom, is the day the SPI dropped and the top portion of the stitch gets occasionally wonky, because at production line speed, it’s hard to get both top and bottom straight and even (so they dropped fudging altogether, shortly thereafter):
mCKx9WN.jpg

2000 Shelton’s - you can the stitch isn’t landing evenly in the fudging - a problem that started the day they did the bottom channel. But hey, it’s nice and even on the bottom (where I couldn’t care less - and the SPI has suffered):
79kqTEm.jpg


Now, is it possibly to do both? Sure, if it’s a slow day or the shoes are a special pair that the person operating the outsole stitcher spends some extra time on (or if you’re Florsheim in their prime, and simply had more outsole stitching stations, running slower - which is my theory on how they did both well). These circa 2013-14 AE Strawfut’s were sent through slowly, and it shows - very high SPI, even on top and bottom:
dyA9mWz.jpg

QRkJWV9.jpg

As you can see, compared to the Shelton’s, from 2000, when they were jamming out PC Shelton’s by the buttload (that’s a technical term, BTW), the Strawfut’s are far better executed.

And for that matter, so were my custom ordered 8221 Shelton’s from 2015, more than a 15 years later:
77t24Gi.jpg

0C0t6Pd.jpg

But this isn’t typical; and generally the result is, to get it even on top and bottom with speed, the SPI dropped (along with little details like / wheeling, fudging and top-channels, etc.).

This completes this OCD rant.
Damn. That’s knowledge. I looked at my vintage AEs and, I’ll be dammed (2nd time I’ve used a variant of that word in a Sunday post before church...), there’s not channel. The tight and precise welt stitching is one of the features I love about vintage AE. Doesn’t the channel slow the wear on the stitching from? I always assumed that’s what the channel was for. Steve from Bedo’s has critiqued AE for the shallow channel on their contemporary shoes. He even told the execs when he toured the WI factory.
 

madhat

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Damn. That’s knowledge. I looked at my vintage AEs and, I’ll be dammed (2nd time I’ve used a variant of that word in a Sunday post before church...), there’s not channel. The tight and precise welt stitching is one of the features I love about vintage AE. Doesn’t the channel slow the wear on the stitching from? I always assumed that’s what the channel was for. Steve from Bedo’s has critiqued AE for the shallow channel on their contemporary shoes. He even told the execs when he toured the WI factory.
I've found it to not make any difference really on the amount of broken stitches, and no effect on sole separation. But, I don't wear my pairs until I see my socks either
 

suitforcourt

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I keep coming across across Cobblers Plus in Denver for some reason. Any experience with them? Or who do you recommend for mail-ins? Thanks

I have no experience with Cobblers Plus in Denver.

But their work looks really good.

For a US cobbler that I have used, and recommend, go with Brian Gavigan in Bufalo. His shop is called Sole Man. I have a review of him here on SF.

A little pricier but skilled and detail orientated.

Gene Harstock in St. Paul Minnesota is also good but slow. Hartland Shoe repair.
 

wasmisterfu

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I've found it to not make any difference really on the amount of broken stitches, and no effect on sole separation. But, I don't wear my pairs until I see my socks either
^ What he said.

It’s a lock stitch, so there’s actually two threads, that interlock halfway inside the leather of the outsole, this provides most of the stitch integrity. Otherwise we’d all be walking around with flappy-slappy outsoles, pretty darned quickly.

Personally, the quality of the thread seems to play a greater role: I have a pair of late era miUSA Florsheim’s that are channeled, but even without really wearing through on the bottom stitch, I’m getting separation between welt and outsole... it looks like the thread may of rotted and failed from the shoe’s soles getting wet.
 

friendlygoz

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I have no experience with Cobblers Plus in Denver.

But their work looks really good.

For a US cobbler that I have used, and recommend, go with Brian Gavigan in Buffalo. His shop is called Sole Man. I have a review of him here on SF.

A little pricier but skilled and detail orientated.

Gene Harstock in St. Paul Minnesota is also good but slow. Hartland Shoe repair.
Here are some other US-based cobblers who have very good reputations:





 
Last edited:

suitforcourt

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I keep coming across across Cobblers Plus in Denver for some reason. Any experience with them? Or who do you recommend for mail-ins? Thanks

If you're on Facebook, there is a group called "North American Shoe Rebuilders." It's a group of cobbler and consumers who talk shop.


You can join and ask questions. @friendlygoz has given some solid recommendations.
 

sam67

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Who is Vintage Shoe Co.? I'd guess made by someone else for them. Made to look older? Just guessing. I did some online searching but didn't come up with much. Thanks
1594581685828.png

1594581703368.png

1594581727494.png
 

CWOyaji

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After selling all the St. Vincent dePaul sourced size 14 Florsheim 96624s and 92604s I rarely wore, this week I ethrifted these Keith Highlanders in a very righteous size 13 D for personal. These are substantial shoes, with big welts that will do the man spreading for me if I ever ride the New York subway again. I'll have to weigh them but with double oak soles they're among the heaviest longwings I own.
CAF4317A-4999-4ED0-942F-26E69976D068_1_201_a.jpeg

I'm thinking about applying navy blue polish, some of our experts say that makes black shoes really pop.
5A288F24-224F-4502-A296-7162DE0E6FB4_1_201_a.jpeg

Barely used, I bet they haven't been worn more than a few times.
7249C1C2-EE6C-4D44-B503-1E01DB7F2436_1_201_a.jpeg
 
Last edited:

jpm1

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If you're on Facebook, there is a group called "North American Shoe Rebuilders." It's a group of cobbler and consumers who talk shop.


You can join and ask questions. @friendlygoz has given some solid recommendations.
Some of the best in the game in that group
 

Joe Wohkittel

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[/QUOTE]
Not my shoes. A lot of Dacks in exotic skins.

You can certainly tell which pair this fellow preferred the least!
 

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