Vintage Dress shoe appreciation, tips, maintenance and advice

[meister]

While searching for the pair of City Club shoes I vaguely recall owing, I stumbled across these and figured I'd add them to the recent discussion on AEs. From the 50s or 60s I suppose. I'll have to look through their old catalogs.

Followup: Looks like they are pre ~1962 font change and are in catalogs going back at least to the mid-1950s.

Def 50s. Not 60s with that spadish sole. Glorious shoes BTW

 

[DapperAndy]

Any 10.5 D guys in the Corvallis, Oregon area? Not mine.

Florsheim Lexington Wingtip Oxford Mens Shoes 10.5 D - clothing &...

Florsheim LexingtonWingtip Oxford Mens Shoes 10.5 D Color: Burgundy A classic and versatile men's...

corvallis.craigslist.org

Funny - that's actually quite near me, and not far off in size. I wonder if there is someone with a good collection over there.

 

[Joe Wohkittel]

The seller claims that he cleaned all of the all the wax polish off with acetone, cleaned them with saddle soap, and hit them with various Saphir products. I wonder how if he did some sort of patina. Yours are amazing. I want a pair of these. My collection is shortwing deficient. That’s a thing you know.

In the past, I've included a description of how I cared for the shoes with Saphir products before the auction. I think I'll stop. It now seems to me that the potential buyer who is familiar with these products would just assume be the one to use them on the shoes. Additionally, although shoe flipping is a fine trade, I have issues with some that have bought from me. One pair had the sole bottoms sanded down and stained to look less worn, while the seller stated that "the soles were conditioned using Sole Guard". Another pair I sold that I had restored, the flipper copied the text from how I conditioned them and pasted into his auction, then shellacked them with what I assume was an inst-a-shine sponge.

I"m sure this seller has high integrity, but even the finest products, when used improperly, do more harm than good. (I suppose that sentiment has been expressed here many times before). To me, it looks like he stripped the entire factory finish off off the shoe, at which point they needed to be dyed or at minimum pigmented with something that adds more color than Medaille D'Or. To me, the color looks very splotchy. Too light around the eyelets, to dark in other places. The color didn't take to the stitching evenly either. Last, there my be micro-cracking at the exterior flex point on the right shoe.
Lousy insomnia, I apologize for that rant.

 

[wasmisterfu]

I agree, almost all the Thom McAn's out their are poorly made and of course there were fashion-oriented brands years ago as their are now. That stated, my experience has been that a 70-year-old fashion-oriented shoe is (generally) a nice shoe by modern production standards. However, my opinion on what constitutes a "nice" shoe no doubt more liberal than that of other folks.

As for how surviving translates into quality, I feel the correlation is far from perfect. A pair of 50s Edwin Clapps would never wear like the 93602, but it is (arguibly) a better shoe. Likewise, my favorite pair of Bally cap-toes wore out long ago, but the pair of Park Avenues I bought around the same time are still solid. My opinion is that the Ballys were a better shoe, but they were built to serve a different purpose.

If we were dealing with production numbers that were even remotely relatable, I’d agree, but during the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s and even 70’s, companies like ISC and Melville (Thom McAn) where producing more shoes in 6 months than Alden, AE, French Shriner & Urner, Edwin Clapp would ever make, or have ever made, combined! The total number of Florsheim Imperials ever made wasn’t a years worth of sales for Thom McAn’s stores, back in the 60’s (when they surpassed ISC to become the largest producer, churning out ~80,000,000 pairs annually). The scale ISC and Melville shoe production and sales was enormous, with each of these companies individually selling about 2.2 pairs of shoes every second of every day.

In contrast, AE production, at its peak a few years ago, was around 400,000 pairs a year; for most of its existence, AE made around 100,000 pairs a year (the old Belgium WI plant only had a capacity of around 150k max). French, Shriner & Urner, when acquired by US Shoe Corp, was producing around 250k pair per year. Mighty Hanover, at their peak (around 1970) produced around 3 million pairs a year. In contrast, just a single Melville plant, the Nashua, NH plant, produced more than 7 million pair per year.

So, when I say the numbers tell the story, I’m talking actual orders of magnitude. There are remarkably few examples of Thom McAn’s out there, relative to such enormous production. The same is true for the vast majority of ISC products - with one exception: Florsheim. Behavior isn’t the primary reason: product quality, and more specifically material quality, almost certainly is the primary reason.

And the proof is in the pudding: I own a pair of NOS 50’s, lower cost City Club’s, and they’re nice looking, high-SPI, externally well executed shoe that, at first glance, looks like a much more expensive shoe. But when you park them next to a Florsheim Imperial (even ones made in the 80’s), or a pair of similar-vintage French Shriner, or a pair of Weyenberg’s, or AE’s of virtually any vintage, it’s obvious that you weren’t getting any of those shoes, which all cost twice as much or more, for half-price.

It’s like the Fermi Paradox, but for shoes: on numbers alone, they should be out there, but they aren’t. I’m pretty sure it’s because all those lower-cost, high-volume ISC and Melville products fell apart and disintegrated long ago.

 

[Resipsaloquitor]

The Chesters looked like they had been worn maybe 2-3 times. The uppers were prestine and looked fresh out of the box, no products had ever been applied. The insoles had no foot prints or staining and the outsoles had been worn outside of carpet, but not much. I'm wearing them right now!

My method:

1. Clean the shoe with a brush and then a damp cloth, make sure to get into the welt.
2. Hit the shoe with some conditioner.
3. Sometimes I throw on some Saphir Renovatuer at this stage, which really makes the leather supple.
4. After that I apply 1-2 rounds of cream polish in the color of the shoe or neutral for something like bourbon or a burnished shoe (or if I don't have the proper color).
5. Two light coats of wax with a buff shine on the entire shoe.
6. Then I apply light coats with a dab of water to spit shine until I get a mirror finish that I'm happy with. I only do this to the heels and toe box in front of the crease.

Each step you should let the shoe rest and dry before buffing and proceeding to the next step. I think I spent maybe 2 hours on the Chesters from basically new to how I wanted them. I learned the spit shine method from my brother when we were in JROTC together in high school.

Here is a pair of Aldens that I recently got from ebay that were in dire condition that I mainly got as a project and to help learn my sizing. They don't fit, so I plan to sell them or see if they fit my dad.

Here's the listing photo:


Here is after I stripped one shoe with acetone:


Stripped shoe in the light after some bick 4:


Completed project.

Speaking of not being able to sleep; yet having ped sugarplum dreams. Somehow got turned around and almost necro responded to a 4 year old post at the BEGINNING of the vintage thread. SMF got some great shoe care tips which is why I probably “should” spend more time doing instead of buying more shoes. Well okay got a pair of vintage Freeman today for under 50 skins. Local customs barely murmured as I did some “Lucy xplainin”! Of course today’s big triumph was a purchase “for her” from our neighbors who are moving and let me (I mean us ;-) ) have their 1906 (possibly Grade III to IV) cherry wood piano for $200. Had to let them offer it to us for that price because I would have felt I was insulting them for offering a price that ridiculously low price. Heck she paid more than 600$ replacing the felt and whatever you do to a work of art like that. Still its 3/4 stripped down to its natural cherry and will keep Mrs Res busy during the winter months whilst I attempt to renew the “freedom train” of rescued shoes past “local customs”...if ya know what I mean wink wink nod nod. Will follow up with pictures and brand name next trip back from the bay area crash pad/vintage shoe museum. If there is a SF Bay area meet and greet / local customs bragging meeting planned anytime soon please do advise me via PM. Or we could all just attend a session of how to make other vintage shoe collectors / museum curators drool at fabulous finds by CWOyaji!

 

[sam67]

I'd like to bring these back to discussion. Any ideas? I did have an email interaction with Alden this week. Very nice of them as they looked at every picture I had. They said they cannot confirm nor deny that it is an Alden shoe. I really appreciated their effort. Do you have any ideas or direct me to another source? "Custom flex" on the footbed. Thanks
Thanks View attachment 1412440 View attachment 1412441 View attachment 1412443 View attachment 1412444

When I realized I could put renomat on cordovan, I realized I had not cleaned these just brushed them. So the above picture is just brushed and renovateur. This is cleaned and brushed.

 

[Jiqea]

An interesting pair of seal leather John McHale Custom shoes were listed on Etsy this week. The sock liner in one of the shoes indicates that they were part of the "Caravan Collection". Their styling is identical to a pair of elephant John McHales that I own, so I pulled them out for a closer look. Although the sock-liner is almost entirely worn, sure enough I could make out that they too were part of the caravan! I suspect that they date to the late 60's or 70's, taking advantage of the exotic leather craze and attempting to compete with Dacks, who had a long and successful run with exotics. Unfortunately I cant locate an advertisement for the Caravan Collection, but there must be one out there somewhere.

I wonder what other members there were in the McHale Caravan. One would think that camel would be a must, and if seals are allowed then Alligator and Shark cant be far behind. I had thought that my pair of Elephant McHales must have been a special order but it appears they were part of a production run.

 

[stook1]

If we were dealing with production numbers that were even remotely relatable, I’d agree, but during the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s and even 70’s, companies like ISC and Melville (Thom McAn) where producing more shoes in 6 months than Alden, AE, French Shriner & Urner, Edwin Clapp would ever make, or have ever made, combined! The total number of Florsheim Imperials ever made wasn’t a years worth of sales for Thom McAn’s stores, back in the 60’s (when they surpassed ISC to become the largest producer, churning out ~80,000,000 pairs annually). The scale ISC and Melville shoe production and sales was enormous, with each of these companies individually selling about 2.2 pairs of shoes every second of every day.

In contrast, AE production, at its peak a few years ago, was around 400,000 pairs a year; for most of its existence, AE made around 100,000 pairs a year (the old Belgium WI plant only had a capacity of around 150k max). French, Shriner & Urner, when acquired by US Shoe Corp, was producing around 250k pair per year. Mighty Hanover, at their peak (around 1970) produced around 3 million pairs a year. In contrast, just a single Melville plant, the Nashua, NH plant, produced more than 7 million pair per year.

So, when I say the numbers tell the story, I’m talking actual orders of magnitude. There are remarkably few examples of Thom McAn’s out there, relative to such enormous production. The same is true for the vast majority of ISC products - with one exception: Florsheim. Behavior isn’t the primary reason: product quality, and more specifically material quality, almost certainly is the primary reason.

And the proof is in the pudding: I own a pair of NOS 50’s, lower cost City Club’s, and they’re nice looking, high-SPI, externally well executed shoe that, at first glance, looks like a much more expensive shoe. But when you park them next to a Florsheim Imperial (even ones made in the 80’s), or a pair of similar-vintage French Shriner, or a pair of Weyenberg’s, or AE’s of virtually any vintage, it’s obvious that you weren’t getting any of those shoes, which all cost twice as much or more, for half-price.

It’s like the Fermi Paradox, but for shoes: on numbers alone, they should be out there, but they aren’t. I’m pretty sure it’s because all those lower-cost, high-volume ISC and Melville products fell apart and disintegrated long ago.

Had no idea production numbers were that high. Seems staggering but it was, of course, a different time. As always, thanks for sharing. Your posts are always super informative.

 

[stook1]

In the past, I've included a description of how I cared for the shoes with Saphir products before the auction. I think I'll stop. It now seems to me that the potential buyer who is familiar with these products would just assume be the one to use them on the shoes. Additionally, although shoe flipping is a fine trade, I have issues with some that have bought from me. One pair had the sole bottoms sanded down and stained to look less worn, while the seller stated that "the soles were conditioned using Sole Guard". Another pair I sold that I had restored, the flipper copied the text from how I conditioned them and pasted into his auction, then shellacked them with what I assume was an inst-a-shine sponge.

I"m sure this seller has high integrity, but even the finest products, when used improperly, do more harm than good. (I suppose that sentiment has been expressed here many times before). To me, it looks like he stripped the entire factory finish off off the shoe, at which point they needed to be dyed or at minimum pigmented with something that adds more color than Medaille D'Or. To me, the color looks very splotchy. Too light around the eyelets, to dark in other places. The color didn't take to the stitching evenly either. Last, there my be micro-cracking at the exterior flex point on the right shoe.
Lousy insomnia, I apologize for that rant.

I totally get why this is frustrating. I very seldomly flip shoes, I am not a thrifter but I will occasionally find a pair from a thrifter that doesn't know what they have. I'm certainly not looking for them but if I happen to stumble onto an opportunity I'll occasionally take it in part just for the fun of restoring another pair and/or to finance an acquisition. I've probably flipped shoes intentionally 5-10 times at most. From a pure business/profit perspective I do understand why someone would throw lipstick on the pig and call it good. It's somewhat time consuming to do it right and time is money. It's certainly not what I do and it's annoying to deal with it when someone has dumped random product on a shoe and not properly handled them. For me, at least, it's hard to have confidence in the condition of the shoe if I haven't gone through the same restoration process that I would do for a shoe I'm keeping myself --- so, that's what I do.

 

[jpm1]

While searching for the pair of City Club shoes I vaguely recall owing, I stumbled across these and figured I'd add them to the recent discussion on AEs. From the 50s or 60s I suppose. I'll have to look through their old catalogs.

Followup: Looks like they are pre ~1962 font change and are in catalogs going back at least to the mid-1950s.

These are incredible!

 

[jpm1]

Alden 646 Atom Blucher on the TruFlare Last Circa 1979.

 

[Rewiag]

Not vintage, but maintenance related:

I wanted to get a pair of light brown shoes to be dyed black due to a deep scratch that I was unable to repair otherwise.
One of the cobbler I took it to used some crap alcohol based dye without removing old wax / polish and properly cleaning the shoe first. This was lucky, as it turned out that the dye he used was some utter crap, and because of his laziness the dye did not penetrate into the leather and it is somewhat removable.

My question would be what is the best solvent to remove alcohol based dyes?
And what dye should I use to dye the shoes black? Another cobbler recommended a water based dye, but I'm not sure whom to trust anymore...

 

[stook1]

Not vintage, but maintenance related:

I wanted to get a pair of light brown shoes to be dyed black due to a deep scratch that I was unable to repair otherwise.
One of the cobbler I took it to used some crap alcohol based dye without removing old wax / polish and properly cleaning the shoe first. This was lucky, as it turned out that the dye he used was some utter crap, and because of his laziness the dye did not penetrate into the leather and it is somewhat removable.

My question would be what is the best solvent to remove alcohol based dyes?
And what dye should I use to dye the shoes black? Another cobbler recommended a water based dye, but I'm not sure whom to trust anymore...

Pics? Honestly, not quite sure what to make of what you are describing. If the shoes weren't stripped then the dye won't penetrate and I'd expect it would pretty much wipe right off with a bit of renomat or even just vigorous scrubbing. I have no idea what water based dye is. I suspect the guy really means alcohol based dye (ie. as opposed to oil based dye). I have never used oil based dye and there is nothing wrong with alcohol based dye.

In either case, any waxes and, importantly, the original coating on the leather need to be stripped using acetone (or similar) in order for the dye to properly absorb into the leather. The issue seems to be not with the dye but with the prep. Changing the color to black is very straightforward. Once properly prepped it should not be that big of a deal.

 

[madhat]

View attachment 1419164
Alden 646 Atom Blucher on the TruFlare Last Circa 1979.

Nice! I was going to comment that curve as the balmoral line goes under the tab isn't there on modern Atoms, but I looked at my pair...sure is there!

 

[jpm1]

Nice! I was going to comment that curve as the balmoral line goes under the tab isn't there on modern Atoms, but I looked at my pair...sure is there!

Thank you! Alden actually has a balmoral atom-esq pattern that they call the campus bal.

I have been trying to get them to allow us to run them again but unfortunately this pattern is not likely to be seen again.