Vintage Dress shoe appreciation, tips, maintenance and advice

[happypebble]

“That’s Ok, honey. You just rest on the couch. I’ll put away all the groceries that were just delivered.”

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"Pay no attention to those white boxes, honey"

 

[CWOyaji]

Whoa... what are those Hanovers? I’ve never seen a pair of their hand-sewn’s IRL. Are those Shell (‘cause they look like it)?

Yup, they’re shell. My pair even made it into that veritable Valhalla of vintage shoes, the vcleat.com Hanover Shell Cordovan Models Photo Gallery

 

[nikolau]

So the gemming (heavy duty canvas) is glued to the bottom (using a special machine). That forms the first part of the rib. Then the bottom of the upper is folded over the bottom of the insole and stitched to the gemming, forming the complete rib. This rib is what the welt is then stitched to. In a 360 welt, the whole thing becomes a single unitized component.

Once upon a time (~80 years ago), they used to cut a partial thin feather (during mass-production of insoles) from the bottom of the insole, and reenforce it with gemming to form the initial part of the rib, but over time it became apparent that the gemming was doing all the work (unlike a hand-fashioned leather rib in a true hand-welted shoe, which is stronger than gemming). So they dropped cutting the feather back in the 40’s or earlier.

There’s a pretty well known bespoke boot-maker, here on SF, who makes a point of referring to GYW shoes as being essentially “cemented” because the upper and welt aren’t inherently stitched to the insole, but adhered with cement. He’s not wrong, and gemming failure does happen, though minor issues are fixed during recraft (cementing a partially lifted segment of gemming back in place) and a reasonably skilled cobbler can fix a partial failure in a few minutes. Many (probably 3/4’s, based on comments from cobblers) will never experience even minor gemming issues.

Honestly, if you try to remove your insoles (if leather) from a GYW shoe, provided they haven’t had excessive exposure to external moisture or solvents, you’ll be shocked at how hard it is to pull the insole from the gemming. I know, I’ve tried (for science, on a ruined pair), and I ended up ripping the leather; meaning the leather that the gemming was adhered to ripped away from the rest of the insole... that’s how strong both the canvas and shoe cement is (you definitely wouldn’t want to glue a body part to something, by accident, with that stuff).

If the insole is such a crucial part of the construction of the shoe, this raises the question: what material is best for insoles? Does anyone use a very heavy duty (e.g. 6-8 oz) work boot leather? Is “flexible fiber” basically just cardboard that falls apart after a while?

 

[Nealjpage]

VTG The Florsheim Shoe Varsity Imperial Mens Wingtip Oxford Brown 30813 8 1/2 D | eBay

<p>This auction is for a pair of vintage The Florsheim Shoe Imperial Quality Mens Brown Wingtip Oxford shoes size 8 1/2D. They are in good Pre-owned condition. The original heel and leather soles are in nice shape. Shipped with USPS Priority Mail.</p>

www.ebay.com

Thanks for the tip.

 

[Nealjpage]

11 C guys. Vintage AE Broadstreet brown and white spectators. They look hardly worn. Not my listing.

Allen Edmunds Mens Broadstreet Brogue Wingtips Brown & White Size 11 C | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Allen Edmunds Mens Broadstreet Brogue Wingtips Brown & White Size 11 C at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[wasmisterfu]

If the insole is such a crucial part of the construction of the shoe, this raises the question: what material is best for insoles? Does anyone use a very heavy duty (e.g. 6-8 oz) work boot leather? Is “flexible fiber” basically just cardboard that falls apart after a while?

I’ve done whole posts and breakdowns on this topic (with pictures and stuff), that’s archived somewhere on SF, but here’s a shortish version:

Leather is best, because it’s both strong, but also has excellent progressive impact absorption qualities. After leather comes high-quality man-made insoles, made of cellular urethane, aka poron. Poron is a poromeric material (similar to Corfam), designed to breath, but also have superior impact absorption prosperities to leather. Some consider poron superior to leather, though I personally disagree (but that’s my opinion).

The next level down is a high-quality Texon fiberboard (aka: flexible fiber) insole. Texon fiberboard insoles might be, essentially, a cellulose based product (paper of sorts) but they’re actually incredibly tough. These are made by a specific company, Texon, that’s a massive insole supplier to the footwear industry. The problem with Texon insoles, is they don’t degrade progressively, especially it the shoe is subject to abuse (e.g. years of salt-water intrusion). That said, Texon insoles are pretty damn tough, though I don’t like how they “feel”.

At roughly the same level is leather-board insoles, which were popular as a low-cost alternative to actual leather insoles; they’re pretty tough, but lack the impact absorption qualities of real leather, and if subjected to excessive corrosive elements, they can breakdown rather spectacularly. Florsheim used these on some of the Imperial line during the late 80’s and early to mid 90’s.

At the very bottom, far far below any of the stuff listed above, are the “non-Texon” (meaning cheap substitute) paperboard insoles used by the likes of Clark’s/Hanover/Bostonian in the final days of mainline US production (out of the Hanover West Virginia planet). These insoles are so weak, you can tear them with your bare hands. Also, be aware that on very vintage examples of low-end shoes (like 40’s and 50’s City Club’s, much of the Tom McAn line, etc.), they were essentially using the same thing, which is why so few examples of low-end shoes survive (despite gigantic production numbers).

So that’s my 2 cents. Generally you’ll see premium brands using either leather or Poron (or a leather-poron hybrid). You’ll notice that top-end models of Hanover’s and Florsheims tended to stick with proper leather insoles right up to the end. They’re the default for the likes of AE and Alden (though both have offered poron on certain models at various times).

 

[wasmisterfu]

Yup, they’re shell. My pair even made it into that veritable Valhalla of vintage shoes, the vcleat.com Hanover Shell Cordovan Models Photo Gallery
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Ohhh right, these are those Shell Hanover’s. I must have missed the OP, but I saw the discussion. Those are freakin neat.

 

[smfdoc]

There is a current listing on Ebay for some new Florsheims LWBs that are accompanied by some God awful kilties that just really do not go well with the rest of the shoe.

I had to check out where they were made in the hopes they may be worthwhile. I was disappointed. Just compare the appearance of the front of these shoes...

as compared to a vintage pair.

The seller sent me the photo of the shoe label, which confirmed my sad suspicions. Made in India. It is sometimes tempting to pick up a made in India Florsheim in the hopes that the quality is really not that much different than the earlier MiUSA pairs. Sadly, it is a hope in vain.

 

[suitforcourt]

There is a current listing on Ebay for some new Florsheims LWBs that are accompanied by some God awful kilties that just really do not go well with the rest of the shoe.

View attachment 1401631

I had to check out where they were made in the hopes they may be worthwhile. I was disappointed. Just compare the appearance of the front of these shoes...

View attachment 1401632

as compared to a vintage pair.



View attachment 1401635

The seller sent me the photo of the shoe label, which confirmed my sad suspicions. Made in India. It is sometimes tempting to pick up a made in India Florsheim in the hopes that the quality is really not that much different than the earlier MiUSA pairs. Sadly, it is a hope in vain.

View attachment 1401636

I must say that the very early Indian made pairs from the 90s, had similar quality to the equivalent ones still made or assembled in the US. Goes to show, it was management's decision to reduce the brand to the lowest common denominator.

This pair, I would pay maybe 50 for. And use them as rain shoes.

Then again, I have so many well made pairs that I use as rain shoes, I doubt I would ever reach for these.

You're right. Pass.

 

[wasmisterfu]

There is a current listing on Ebay for some new Florsheims LWBs that are accompanied by some God awful kilties that just really do not go well with the rest of the shoe.

View attachment 1401631

I had to check out where they were made in the hopes they may be worthwhile. I was disappointed. Just compare the appearance of the front of these shoes...

View attachment 1401632

as compared to a vintage pair.



View attachment 1401635

The seller sent me the photo of the shoe label, which confirmed my sad suspicions. Made in India. It is sometimes tempting to pick up a made in India Florsheim in the hopes that the quality is really not that much different than the earlier MiUSA pairs. Sadly, it is a hope in vain.

View attachment 1401636

There’s just a “cheapness” of the materials, with the miIndia pair, that bleeds through the photo. To me that’s the core problem; the execution is fine (though obviously a step down from the miUSA pair), but everything looks cheap: the leather, the welt (looks like cheap vinyl), the linings, even the laces look cheap. They look like they’re gonna hurt like hell to break-in, and will never form a good patina.

And, as the owner of a pair of miIndia CG saddles, they’ve never loosened up; the leather is just stiff and unpleasant, the blake+rapid construction is unforgiving on pavement, and all the orthotic squishy stuff they put in them doesn’t make them at all comfortable. I wore them quite a bit, hoping they’d get better, but they never have. Sure, the first hour or so is okay, but as time wears on, uggghhh.

These two shoes might look very similar (having been made within just a couple of years of one another), with similar color, PU coated creasing. But, one of these shoes is very supple, comfortable from morning to midnight, while the other is stiff to the point where your feet will be screaming (and possibly bleeding) by 5pm. They could not feel more radically different.

So you’re right to “just say no“ to miIndia Florsheim’s, they aren’t worth the effort or money (with the recent 125th anniversary line perhaps being the sole exception).

(Note: if you zoom in, you can actually make out the scarred nature of the leather on the toe-box of the far shoe [the miIndia Florsheim], sitting under the heavy PU top-coat; versus the near shoe [AE Shelton PC] where no such bunk’ness is present.)

 

[Nealjpage]

I was digging around in my closet and found a pair of jeans I didn't remember thrifting. Is this a sign that I have a problem?

 

[ccpl14]

I was digging around in my closet and found a pair of jeans I didn't remember thrifting. Is this a sign that I have a problem?

I've found shoes that I didn't remember thrifting. Nice ones too.

 

[suitforcourt]

I was digging around in my closet and found a pair of jeans I didn't remember thrifting. Is this a sign that I have a problem?

I've found shoes that I didn't remember thrifting. Nice ones too.

It is only a problem if you claim it as such. Stop trying to gain sympathy from us.

You don't have a problem. Maybe a bad memory. Or storage places aren't properly organized. What you need is more jeans. And definitely more shoes.

 

[ccpl14]

It is only a problem if you claim it as such. Stop trying to gain sympathy from us.

You don't have a problem. Maybe a bad memory. Or storage places aren't properly organized. What you need is more jeans. And definitely more shoes.

Oh don’t get me wrong - it’s not a problem. I get to enjoy the discovery of them more than once. It’s a feature, not a bug.

 

[wasmisterfu]

It is only a problem if you claim it as such. Stop trying to gain sympathy from us.

You don't have a problem. Maybe a bad memory. Or storage places aren't properly organized. What you need is more jeans. And definitely more shoes.

I can’t support the argument in favor of more jeans. Shoes however... there’s never enough of those.