Vintage Dinner Jacket and Buttonhole?

[Lafont]

Just had fun experience - typical of my usual fastidiousness and obsessions....
My formal dinner jacket for my daughter's wedding is a vintage piece - likely from the '70s: single-breasted, one-button, and burgandy, with satin and velvet notch lapels, and flap pockets with velvet strips.
Going by Flusser's strong suggestion that the one lapel needs a buttonhole and one should have one sewn in if it is missing, and I will be wearing a boutonniere, I took the jacket today to the tailor I consider our most Savile Row-type representative in our Greater Cleveland area; they create much custom formalwear, etc. The owner said it's too risky for a satin lapel; others may do it but he wouldn't take the risk. I asked the guy if he thought it looked really "sophomoric" for one to have the boutonniere just pinned onto a tuxedo lapel (as Flusser claims) and he said it would look better with a hole but "everybody does it." I respect his judgment as much as anyone in town, but I already was carrying the jacket and decided to get a second opinion.

I had had good work done recently at another shop and took the jacket to that lady. She said she'd do it but she doesn't have the right type sewing machine to sew a buttonhole with threading as thick as the other hole has.

I then went to a third shop which had been recommended to me for something unusual last year. That lady (all three of these people were European, for whatever that's worth....) said fine - she could do it and it wouldn't look exactly like the current hole, which seems to have been hand stitched, but there would be no risk to the silk.

Then she happened to remark that a buttonhole really doesn't seem to go with a tuxedo with silk lapels. This started a conversation about vintage vs. "classic" clothing and ideas such as Flusser's . I mentioned the Brooks Brothers tuxedos I had just seen in the same complex did have buttonholes in, I believe, satin lapels, etc. I said I'd check these again and if, indeed, BB thought it is fine to make tuxedos with buttonholes set in satin lapels I'd be comfortable with having this done - otherwise, no. That's what I typically do; if someone or an entity I respect does something it means a lot to me in making a decision. The seamstress, on the other hand, stated she'd personally not like to see a buttonhole created in this type of jacket, that it had not been designed for one, that a pin would have to be used anyway, etc. She also didn't go along with Flusser in his insistance on either shawl collars or peaked lapels for truly formal jackets. She also, as I got into in my earlier post this a.m., stated her opinion that any jacket that has at least one button can certainly be worn with the button closed.

Anyway, at that point I was starting to get the idea I shouldn't spend my $15-20 (we're spending enough already - believe me - on the wedding....) on this lapel intrusion and I am a really purist about original features and style. I went to Brooks Brothers and found their tuxedos on display have identical fabric between lapels and main jacket - similar to silk but not silk. They do have the buttonholes and also flap pockets (Flusser doesn't like these either for formalwear), but the pockets can be tucked in as the design goes all around when one does so. I discussed all this with one of their very good salesmen, whom I often deal with; he said their more expensive tuxedoes - such as those with peaked lapels - do not come with buttonholes in the lapels unless one requests it. Hmmmm....
The moral of all this is - I think I've decided against the new buttonhole and the heck with worrying about the boutonniere having to be pinned right onto the fabric. Any opinions?
Ken

 

[GBR]

It is to be hoped that the event is to be held in the evening if such apparel is to be worn.

 

[Lafont]

Hmmm. A topic brushed with in another post today, regarding the buttoning or not buttoning of the single-breasted jacket....
Ken

 

[dopey]

A few comments. You didn't ask this, but since you are a stickler for detail, I will tell you: A burgundy DJ with satin and velvet trim is not the kind of DJ you would wear to your daughter's wedding. That is what you would wear for formal entertaining in your home (and would call semi-formal if you are Sator or are 150 years old) or at a private club or some other intimate, relaxed event. Even if the wedding were in your home, you should wear a black tux.

As for your other questions -- one button DJs should still be worn closed. You would know it if it were the kind of coat cut to be worn open as it won't really close properly (which is generally only tails) and this doesn't sound like it.

Do not cut a buttonhole into the satin. You can, and some DJ's have them, but I don't think they look as nice. DJs often have no buttonhole, and you certainly don't want a machine sewn one anyway. Instead, what is sometimes done in this case is to put the flower at the notch, with the stem going behind the lapel and tucked into a twisted silk thread loop (this loop is typical on bespoke and high-end RTW, though it is usually placed behind and slightly south of the buttonhole, not the notch). On peak lapel DJs, I have seen a gap left unsewn in the notch seam to function as the buttonhole. You won't have that since it is a notch lapel, so you might need two loops to keep the flower in place.

But, to return to the beginning, if you care enough about these things, you might as well get a black DJ for this event. And as someone else already said, if this is a daytime wedding, then rethink the whole DJ plan - those are for evenings.

 

[Midnight Blue]

Originally Posted by Lafont

She also didn't go along with Flusser in his insistance on either shawl collars or peaked lapels for truly formal jackets.

Any opinions?
Ken

My opinion is not to trust the opinion of anyone who insists that notch lapels are just as formal as peak lapels!

 

[Lafont]

Thanks, everyone.
Hi, dopey. I understand exactly what you mean. I'll put it this way: Last year we were invited to my nephew's "black tie" wedding and, after looking around at the usual formalwear shops, I started studying about formalwear in general and ended up purchasing a formal outfit from head to toe - from many sources and, I feel, creating a most interesting and appealing ensemble. With my future son-in-law's blessing, I am able to wear this entire wonderful outfit to their wedding this year, and it is basically at the same level of formality as what the groom and his groomsmen are wearing (all rented). I understand the groom's father is wearing something different, as well. Frankly, a standard black tuxedo ensemble just doesn't interest me in the least for this affair, when I'll be featured more than I was at the wedding I purchased the outfit for.
I know my jacket is not exactly "classic," but it's "classic '70s," in a sense. A true "period piece" - in the way a bride may wear a very 1940s gown, let's say. A vintage look. It's early "After Six," fits well, is very comfortable and flattering, and all my accessories are completely coordinated with it. The slacks, in fact, are truly classic black, with the stripe, no cuffs, and came with a black jacket typical of the rental places of later years. The outfit also goes well with the overall wedding color combinations, whereas the bridesmaids are featuring burgandy, etc.
I do go in for "classic" in many areas, and do appreciate your ideas concerning the loops, though I probably won't go to that effort and will do the usual "pin on fabric" thing.

 

[lee_44106]

Lafont,

I second Dopey's opinions. I would go with a black dinner jacket. Alteration tailors, I have found, usually have no taste as far as style is concerned, especially classic styles. That said, if his/her techniques are good, I would rely on my own judgement and let them do the actual work.

When I was in Cleveland, the two best locations for alterations were Kilgour-Trout, and Cuffs in Chagrin Falls. They are very expensive but do a very good job.

 

[Sator]

Originally Posted by dopey

You didn't ask this, but since you are a stickler for detail, I will tell you: A burgundy DJ with satin and velvet trim is not the kind of DJ you would wear to your daughter's wedding. That is what you would wear for formal entertaining in your home (and would call semi-formal if you are Sator or are 150 years old) or at a private club or some other intimate, relaxed event. Even if the wedding were in your home, you should wear a black tux.


I don't think dinner clothes have been around for quite that long. I know I certainly haven't been either. In a fit of historical mania I might refer to it as "informal dinner clothes", or a "dress lounge" suitable for dinner at home or at a restaurant amongst private company only.

A burgundy jacket with velvet trim etc sounds frightfully 1960-70's:

 

[a tailor]

there is a good reason why they didnt want to make that buttonhole.
if that faceing was silk there is a good chance that a yarn in the faceing could
snag. just like a ladies stocking. if it was nylon as many rtw djs are then it
would be only slightly less likely. but a pulled thread running across satin
stands out like like a sore thumb.

 

[dopey]

Originally Posted by dopey

A few comments. You didn't ask this, but since you are a stickler for detail, I will tell you: A burgundy DJ with satin and velvet trim is not the kind of DJ you would wear to your daughter's wedding. That is what you would wear for formal entertaining in your home (and would call semi-formal if you are Sator or are 150 years old) or at a private club or some other intimate, relaxed event. Even if the wedding were in your home, you should wear a black tux.

Originally Posted by Sator

I don't think dinner clothes have been around for quite that long. I know I certainly haven't been either. In a fit of historical mania I might refer to it as "informal dinner clothes", or a "dress lounge" suitable for dinner at home or at a restaurant amongst private company only. . .[/IMG]
You know, I thought about that number for a bit and still got it wrong. I was thinking of someone about 30 years old in 1930, which would be about 100+ today. That would be my guess for the right time and age to have fixed the terminology inflexibly in your mind.

 

[Lafont]

I go to both Kilgour Trout and Cuffs frequently. They are the two "best" all-around menswear (yes, they both have some women's as well) stores in Greater Cleveland. However Joseph Scafidi is downtown, in the financial district, and their ambiance to me is most like Savile Row, with the exception (which is significant) being the fact they concentrate quite a bit on Italian clothing and design. But Scafidi's forte is dress clothes, and they do a large business of bespoke suits, shirts, and formalwear. Despite Flusser, by the way, Mr. Scafidi also said the dinner jacket "really should be buttoned" at least some of the time. I go there mainly for the ties, which are truly outstanding.
Between the two emporiums you mention, both concentrating more on casual, I prefer Cuffs - mainly because I associate them more with "old money," English and French, they're in a great Victorian setting, and I love Chagrin Falls. Kilgour Trout is more into Italian but have a lot of Robert Talbott (Scafidi has much Talbott, too; not sure about Cuffs).
Then there's always Brooks Brothers. I'm a BB afficinado and go to BBs wherever I am, and have studied much about their history but, after visiting Savile Row and some St. James shops, I've told people some of them make BB appear sort of like a "Penny's" men's department.... I love BB in general but have purchased a number of their items which just didn't last as well as I thought they should have.
Ken

 

[Lafont]

I'll look at least 52 times better than that actorin the blue....
For my own wedding in 1976 I went in for the Edwardian look, as almost everyone else did at that time it seems, but Edwardian - not 17th or 18th century!
Ken

 

[Lafont]

Yes, it was only one tailor who said he wouldn't risk cutting the hole into the silk (I believe he's Mr. Scafidi) but it sure made me antsy. Sure don't want anything spoiling this tuxedo jacket!
Ken

 

[Lafont]

Revised....

 

[Lafont]

By the way, dopey, the wedding ceremony begins at 4:30 p.m., which makes me feel with that information you may not be so gung-ho about the black tuxedo jacket after all.
The groom, incidentally, will be wearing a black tuxedo with long jacket, black shirt, and ivory vest and bowtie - a look many young guys think today looks cool but far from "traditional."
Ken