Vass vs. Alfred Sargent "Handgrade"

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by alexmvargas, Jul 2, 2010.

  1. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    Honest question. Do you know where Vass leather is sourced from and how many shoes are cut per hide?

    Quality of leather is dependent on the quality of the skins but also how they are cut, i.e. imperfections are less avoidable when more shoes per hide is cut.


    how many pairs can be made of one hide?

    it's one. for all of them. it just depends, what you make of the rest.

    i.e. JL used this as a marketing tool. one hide = one pair. that's correct.

    every maker in the world will confirm that.
     
  2. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    DWFII has an informative post or two on here about how fiddleback waists add structural support to the sole. But I believe that as usual, a number of posters didn't understand him or disagreed.

    that's fine. he's in a class on it's own. no pun intended.

    i've seen and felt the best of both worlds, so as i said, it's a opinion, which has been built up over the years.

    ob blond, ob braun, ich liebe alle frauen. mein herz ist gross...
     
  3. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    I have the world cup on as well. 1. I am not sure this runner up game is going to be all that good. Germany should role over Uruguay. Anyway, we will have to agree to disagree on the fiddlebacks. 2. (But I always enjoy reading your opinions Fritzl.) I am probably more fond of the Reiter styling than that of the Vass, though.

    1. the best game in decades...

    2. thank you, burton

    the best thing about it. it has become a part of my life, i really enjoy.

    i'm just listening to music from robert stolz for jan kiepura performed by peter anders.

    ...gern hab ich die frauen geküsst. manchmal ist die liebe schwer...
     
  4. Burton

    Burton Senior member

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    1. the best game in decades...

    2. thank you, burton

    the best thing about it. it has become a part of my life, i really enjoy.

    i'm just listening to music from robert stolz for jan kiepura performed by peter anders.

    ...gern hab ich die frauen geküsst. manchmal ist die liebe schwer...


    The game was much better than anticipated. I thought, after their disapointment, Germany would take it to Uruguay but Forlan really came to play. SAF has to be wondering if he made the wrong decision years ago, don't you think? Hoping today's game is just as thrilling.
     
  5. Burton

    Burton Senior member

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    AS offer no value to me and i find some of the designs to be off balance also i dont like how the heel counter on those adelaides are seamed just a sign of cutting cost to improve yields on the leather,to me they just a bench grade C&J and copied G&G's sole and then stuck a premium on them, . i'd reather get C&J, G&G or EG or JLP if you are looking for a round toed last then Vass F last is the best RTW last on the market


    As to the designs, you may or may not like them--I do. We can certainly agree to disagree. However, your other points are not at all valid-- like most of the misconceptions which get thrown around here .

    First, that sole is not G+Gs. Alfred Sargent has been doing the painted sole long before G+G were a gleam in the eye of the founders. So it is actually the reverse. I don't believe you know the history of the firms very well. A certain company once made shoes for a certain other company. Let's leave it at that.

    Second, EG, G+G and, low and behold, AS's handgrade line are all bed lasted shoes. All of them.
    The same amount of leather is used on all three.

    The fiddleback waist is something which has been around for many years so I don't believe anyone can claim the rights but I happen to like it very much.

    Final point, I look at the quality and detail of the AS and G+G and they look quite comparable. I like the finishing of the AS handgrades better--that's me. They look like the have more attention to detail and more time in the finishing.
     
  6. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    Hoping today's game is just as thrilling.

    it was not gegen elend,with a lucky winner.

    shitty...
     
  7. Burton

    Burton Senior member

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    it was not gegen elend,with a lucky winner.

    shitty...


    Yes. The Dutch, however, did not attack in the extra periods. I will never understand that. Hopefully Schneider goes to Man U.


    La pace fino al prossimo Euro 2012.
     
  8. luk-cha

    luk-cha Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    As to the designs, you may or may not like them--I do. We can certainly agree to disagree. However, your other points are not at all valid-- like most of the misconceptions which get thrown around here .

    First, that sole is not G+Gs. Alfred Sargent has been doing the painted sole long before G+G were a gleam in the eye of the founders. So it is actually the reverse. I don't believe you know the history of the firms very well. A certain company once made shoes for a certain other company. Let's leave it at that.

    Second, EG, G+G and, low and behold, AS's handgrade line are all bed lasted shoes. All of them.
    The same amount of leather is used on all three.

    The fiddleback waist is something which has been around for many years so I don't believe anyone can claim the rights but I happen to like it very much.

    Final point, I look at the quality and detail of the AS and G+G and they look quite comparable. I like the finishing of the AS handgrades better--that's me. They look like the have more attention to detail and more time in the finishing.


    sounds like you work for AS!

    and i wonder why a cerrtain company does not now make the other mentioned company's shoes anymore

    but anyway, yes your right i dont know diddle about AS history and the sole and wasit treatment has been a standard amongst british shoe markers forever, but my point was it is funny that it wasn't untill one company started offering the beveled and fiddled waist as their norm that somebody else has started to offer the exact same treatment. as for attention to details - yes it is quite easy to make a few pairs that look like that, but can they keep it up?

    to me AS topline are not more that C&J bench grade finsihed upper with a G&G styled sole which for me offer no value in their product
     
  9. Burton

    Burton Senior member

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    sounds like you work for AS!

    and i wonder why a cerrtain company does not now make the other mentioned company's shoes anymore

    but anyway, yes your right i dont know diddle about AS history and the sole and wasit treatment has been a standard amongst british shoe markers forever, but my point was it is funny that it wasn't untill one company started offering the beveled and fiddled waist as their norm that somebody else has started to offer the exact same treatment. as for attention to details - yes it is quite easy to make a few pairs that look like that, but can they keep it up?

    to me AS topline are not more that C&J bench grade finsihed upper with a G&G styled sole which for me offer no value in their product



    I understood your point the first time. It was just as ridiculous when you made it then. Let's just stick with you statement "yes your right i dont know diddle about AS history . . . " You also seem to know little about shoes. Not only do I not work for the company, I live in a city where you can't even buy the shoes from a store. All of the info I posted is available on the web, but you haven't bothered to educate yourself. Yet, you come here throw your opinions around as if you know all. That is just silly. Can they keep it up? Absurd quuestion, they have made shoes for other labels (labels you seem to think actually made shoes) for years--actually for more than 100. The question isn't can AS keep it up, but can the others? I won't engage in the silly disparagements of which you seem to be quite fond. C&J make a good shoe but it is not near the quality of Sargent's handgrade. You can always educate yourself about the manufacture of the shoes--or you can just post and . . . . sell wallets.
     
  10. cdmoore1855

    cdmoore1855 Senior member

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    S may very well be making some nice shoes, as to whether they are better than Vass, I doubt it.

    I do have a slight problem with AS much the same way LC does. They were contracted to make shoes for another brand we all know, they then had some financial difficulties, badly treated their staff by laying them all off and not paying them. They managed to survive this episode of economic uncertainty and low and behold they start flogging a new line of shoes that look remarkably like the brand they were contracted to make. Even stealing the designs down to the smallest details. Anyway, other brands out there that might have been tempted to use AS for their work can now see what might happen when you sever your relationship
     
  11. Burton

    Burton Senior member

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    AS may very well be making some nice shoes, as to whether they are better than Vass, I doubt it.

    I do have a slight problem with AS much the same way LC does. They were contracted to make shoes for another brand we all know, they then had some financial difficulties, badly treated their staff by laying them all off and not paying them. They managed to survive this episode of economic uncertainty and low and behold they start flogging a new line of shoes that look remarkably like the brand they were contracted to make. Even stealing the designs down to the smallest details. Anyway, other brands out there that might have been tempted to use AS for their work can now see what might happen when you sever your relationship


    You really don't know a thing about what you are talking about. It is true, over a year ago AS almost went under. Why???? Ask yourself that question. Perhaps things are not as you believe them to be, and they aren't. AS stole things from G+G? Are you kidding? AS have been making shoes, as a family company, since before the guys from G+G were born. Yes, the shoes look similar and bear striking similarities. Should AS have just closed up shop when G+G pulled away from them? Should they have stopped doing what they have been doing for years because the lost a contract? These are silly, silly, points made by people who truck in rumor and innuendo and not fact. Many of the things that you credit to other companies belong to Alfred Sargent. As to the Vass vs. AS discussion which was the original topic of this thread, they are different shoes and the deciding factor should be personal taste.
     
  12. kolecho

    kolecho Senior member

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    really?

    +1.
     
  13. luk-cha

    luk-cha Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I understood your point the first time. It was just as ridiculous when you made it then. Let's just stick with you statement "yes your right i dont know diddle about AS history . . . " You also seem to know little about shoes. Not only do I not work for the company, I live in a city where you can't even buy the shoes from a store. All of the info I posted is available on the web, but you haven't bothered to educate yourself. Yet, you come here throw your opinions around as if you know all. That is just silly. Can they keep it up? Absurd quuestion, they have made shoes for other labels (labels you seem to think actually made shoes) for years--actually for more than 100. The question isn't can AS keep it up, but can the others? I won't engage in the silly disparagements of which you seem to be quite fond. C&J make a good shoe but it is not near the quality of Sargent's handgrade. You can always educate yourself about the manufacture of the shoes--or you can just post and . . . . sell wallets.

    where in any of my posts do i claim to be an expert and know it all on shoes and there making, not once!

    also why do i need to be an expert in shoes before i can have an opinion, also i am not looking for a verbal sparing match on the hows and why of how to make shoes

    yes i am aware that AS have made for Brooks, Polo and M&S plus some of the bigger Japanese retail chains too, but in their recent history - this is there first attempt to go high end, which is a good sign and i hope they suceed as it will push all other shoe makers to do the same an improve their offerings, but at their current offerings i think just offers a poor value for money and just not special enough to command the premium they charge, this was my only point - of course the OP is more than happy to get what they like - but i will say that the design of the keats is better than Vass's version of the adelaide
     
  14. Burton

    Burton Senior member

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    where in any of my posts do i claim to be an expert and know it all on shoes and there making, not once!

    also why do i need to be an expert in shoes before i can have an opinion, also i am not looking for a verbal sparing match on the hows and why of how to make shoes

    yes i am aware that AS have made for Brooks, Polo and M&S plus some of the bigger Japanese retail chains too, but in their recent history - this is there first attempt to go high end, which is a good sign and i hope they suceed as it will push all other shoe makers to do the same an improve their offerings, but at their current offerings i think just offers a poor value for money and just not special enough to command the premium they charge, this was my only point - of course the OP is more than happy to get what they like - but i will say that the design of the keats is better than Vass's version of the adelaide


    I know you keep saying they are a poor value, yet you cannot point out a reason they are. Who do you think made G+G's shoes? Their shoes are made using the same processes and the same materials with the same crafts people as G+G and EG. To me, that is the level of their quality --unless you have something different? We are all entitled to our opinions let's just not slosh them around as fact.
     
  15. kolecho

    kolecho Senior member

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    I understood your point the first time. It was just as ridiculous when you made it then. Let's just stick with you statement "yes your right i dont know diddle about AS history . . . " You also seem to know little about shoes. Not only do I not work for the company, I live in a city where you can't even buy the shoes from a store. All of the info I posted is available on the web, but you haven't bothered to educate yourself. Yet, you come here throw your opinions around as if you know all. That is just silly. Can they keep it up? Absurd quuestion, they have made shoes for other labels (labels you seem to think actually made shoes) for years--actually for more than 100. The question isn't can AS keep it up, but can the others? I won't engage in the silly disparagements of which you seem to be quite fond. C&J make a good shoe but it is not near the quality of Sargent's handgrade. You can always educate yourself about the manufacture of the shoes--or you can just post and . . . . sell wallets.

    Below the belt.
     

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