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Updated Cleverley Website

Manton

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Wow. Terrific.
 

Manton

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Although what is "˜Bespoke Made to Measure'? It's either MTM or bespoke, but it can't be both.
With shoes, there is no such distinction. Each term really means the same thing, so the website is being redundant.

"Made to measure" is the common usage on the Continent, so perhaps they include both terms in order to ensure that all their various clients and potential clients know the score.
 

jester

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I've heard of MTM shoes. Ducker's, in Oxford, once offered to make me a pair. You can choose any particular style from the maker, and they will build it on any of their regular lasts. This way if you need a particular last for reasons of fit, but don't like the shoes they normally make on this last, you can still be satisfied.

They didn't use the term "made-to-measure", but it strikes me as roughly equivalent to what Americans use that term to mean.
 

imageWIS

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I've heard of MTM shoes. Ducker's, in Oxford, once offered to make me a pair. You can choose any particular style from the maker, and they will build it on any of their regular lasts. This way if you need a particular last for reasons of fit, but don't like the shoes they normally make on this last, you can still be satisfied.

They didn't use the term "made-to-measure", but it strikes me as roughly equivalent to what Americans use that term to mean.
Exactly, that's what I think as well. Thus, definitions should read like:

MTM: "˜custom-style' details based on standardized sizes, modified (as much as possible) to customers sizes / specifications

Bespoke: Completely made for the particular customer, items are based completely based on measurements, material and detail specifications.

Jon.
 

RJman

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I've heard of MTM shoes. Ducker's, in Oxford, once offered to make me a pair. You can choose any particular style from the maker, and they will build it on any of their regular lasts. This way if you need a particular last for reasons of fit, but don't like the shoes they normally make on this last, you can still be satisfied.

They didn't use the term "made-to-measure", but it strikes me as roughly equivalent to what Americans use that term to mean.
No, that's made to order, like the Edward Green made to order program, which has nothing to do with their bespoke program.  This is simply a Special Order on an existing pattern or last.  Made to Measure, even in tailoring, denotes that a stock pattern may be used but it is tweaked for some individual measurements.  Kilgour offers a Stock Special Service that essentially is a made to order service -- patterns are not altered to fit you, but you choose a cloth and a style.  (It is not their Shanghai bespoke program.)  Contrast it with Gieves or Richard James' MTM service, where the existing pattern is altered to a certain extent to suit different height or girth or what have you.

Nowadays Grenson runs Ducker's made to order program.  Grenson also allegedly offers bespoke services through Ducker.  Yes, Grenson too offers stock specials as well as bespoke/made to measure programs. Grenson also makes at least some of the shoes at Duckers.
 

Manton

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RJman is right. The acid test of bespoke is whether a pattern or last is individually drawn (or carved) for each customer. The acid test of MTM in tailored clothing is whether the stock pattern is modified to better fit a particular individual. So far as I know, this cannot be and never is done with shoe lasts.

FYI, some of the London bespoke shoemakers (I'm thinking of Foster's, but I'm sure there are others) describe their bepoke product as "hand made to measure". Lobb Paris also refer to their bespoke shoes as made to measure.
 

kabert

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Wow, amazing shoes. You know, Cleverley's old website was way better than Edward Green's. But with this new Cleverley website, Edward Green's now looks positively prehistoric. What are there, about 4 or 5 shoes pictured on the EG website, and poorly photographed at that. We have to go to the Japanese shoe Appreciation sites to view pictures of EG shoes.

In any case, seeing Cleverley's incredible and broad collection makes me wonder whether it's possible to get their RTW line on the US, other than on EBay.
 

jcusey

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The acid test of MTM in tailored clothing is whether the stock pattern is modified to better fit a particular individual. So far as I know, this cannot be and never is done with shoe lasts.
It can be and is done. The maker will add strips of leather or other material to a stock last to fit the client's measurements (hence the name -- the addition method). Vass in Budapest uses this method, as do all of the custom bootmakers in the United States that I know of. Edward Green will make some additions to stock lasts to satisfy hard-to-fit customers on special orders, but I don't think that the modifications that they'll make for this service are as extensive as you would find at Vass.
 

RJman

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 Lobb Paris also refer to their bespoke shoes as made to measure.
I was going to mention that... I remember placing my nose against the window at rue Boissy d'Anglas looking at the place card with prices. The "made to measure" was 1800 euros... Not so long ago, in a different universe with a different exchange rate.
 

Manton

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It can be and is done. The maker will add strips of leather or other material to a stock last to fit the client's measurements (hence the name -- the addition method). Vass in Budapest uses this method, as do all of the custom bootmakers in the United States that I know of. Edward Green will make some additions to stock lasts to satisfy hard-to-fit customers on special orders, but I don't think that the modifications that they'll make for this service are as extensive as you would find at Vass.
Live and learn. How well does it work?

Does either EG or Vass call that MTM? Are the modifications as substantial as the modifications on a MTM suit? Also, bespoke shoes typically use different (better) materials and a lot more handwork. Is that also true of this type of shoe, or are they basically made to the same standard as a RTW shoe?
 

RJman

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I don't _think_ EG special orders are made with bespoke quality leather although tonyeg knows a heck of a lot better than I.

No idea about Vass although the Sky Valet guy does insist that the Vass RTW are made to the same spec as the bespoke.
 

Alexander Kabbaz

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JCusey
It can be and is done. The maker will add strips of leather or other material to a stock last to fit the client's measurements (hence the name -- the addition method). Vass in Budapest uses this method, as do all of the custom bootmakers in the United States that I know of.
Are you referring here strictly to U.S. M-T-M? I'm confused by your phrase "custom bootmakers".
 

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