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Unfunded Liabilities: a/k/a The Cloth Thread

kalufsen

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Planning to get a Sport Jacket done in Fresco III, 510244 - 315 G. To me it have enough structure to work as a "odd" Jacket - Anyone who have the fabric in a odd jacket, please share your thoughts and experience.

Also saw a jacket on IG the other day, looked amazing. Fox Somerset jacketing - Black/White Houndstoot - SJ9 - 340/370G. Would you consider this a three season fabric? Thoughts on the feel? Experience with it? Does it even work on a summer evening?

For reference, I live in Stockholm/Sweden.
 

kalufsen

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I have a coat in 510244 - three patch with horn buttons.

It's one of my favourites - it's got some body and stretch, and it breathes very well.

It'd be great for the warmer months in Stockholm.

No Man Walks Alone had a coat in the same cloth.

View attachment 1736753
View attachment 1736754
Do you find it works well with a broader array of fabrics such as Cotton, Linen and Wool trousers? What I really enjoy (except it being a navy sport coat :D) is the shift of appearance depending on the light, both indoors and outdoors.
 

物の哀れ

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I'm pretty boring - I wear it mostly with grey trousers (Fresco 510248 and 510246) and sometimes with white denim.
 

brax

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Thanks, Derek – very helpful.

In terms of timing, I had my first meeting in December and, as you say, would love for Taka/Vitorio to have the cloth I ultimately choose in hand in time to make up a basted coat in time for their next trip. That said…this is a tentpole piece (excuse the cliche) for me, so more important to get it right than fast.

In terms of amount to order, the same basic logic applies – risking not having quite enough in return for saving the incremental cost of that .5m just doesn't seem worth it to me. So 4m it is.
Why not simply ask your tailor? I asked mine and he told me that 3.5 was more than enough.
 

dieworkwear

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If your tailor has already measured you, they should know how much cloth they need for an overcoat. Would ask them, and then ask other tailors who have worked with the Everest cloth if they experienced a lot of shrinkage with that fabric. I believe 2.5m of the Lovat double-faced cashmere shrank down to 2m after being hit with steam.
 

paborden

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I have an overcoat in the double faced navy / camel Everest run. Bought the cloth secondhand and think I paid $2k or thereabouts for a 4m length a few years ago, finally had it made up.

Some observations:
  • I was not told anything about shrinkage and 4m was enough to go mid calf and I'm 6'4".
  • The cloth itself is, at the current price, similar to a lot of cashmere, and even within spitting distance of some wool pricing (I'm looking at you Holland and Sherry). The everest is exponentially better and not exponentially more expensive.
  • The cloth is so good that I'm thinking about buying a second length. I would normally never consider this.
  • It is not as warm as I expected it to be, frankly, but I run cold. I've found it very wearable.
  • The thickness of the cloth means it has kind of a duffle coat look to it.
  • The density of the cloth means that hand stitching some of the seams is difficult, I literally watched a needle buckle when my tailor tried to do this in front of me.
  • I was worried about the weight of the coat. A little heavy but travel with it has been fine.
  • The cashmere, like all cashmere, tends to pill, get a little fuzzy, that kind of thing so be prepared for that.
  • I was super skeptical when buying this since I tend to be very practical and pedestrian in my taste (ie prefer Alden to Edward Green), usually could care less about cashmere, but I love this cloth so much.
Happy to answer any questions.
 

bjhofkin

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I have an overcoat in the double faced navy / camel Everest run. Bought the cloth secondhand and think I paid $2k or thereabouts for a 4m length a few years ago, finally had it made up.

Some observations:
  • I was not told anything about shrinkage and 4m was enough to go mid calf and I'm 6'4".
  • The cloth itself is, at the current price, similar to a lot of cashmere, and even within spitting distance of some wool pricing (I'm looking at you Holland and Sherry). The everest is exponentially better and not exponentially more expensive.
  • The cloth is so good that I'm thinking about buying a second length. I would normally never consider this.
  • It is not as warm as I expected it to be, frankly, but I run cold. I've found it very wearable.
  • The thickness of the cloth means it has kind of a duffle coat look to it.
  • The density of the cloth means that hand stitching some of the seams is difficult, I literally watched a needle buckle when my tailor tried to do this in front of me.
  • I was worried about the weight of the coat. A little heavy but travel with it has been fine.
  • The cashmere, like all cashmere, tends to pill, get a little fuzzy, that kind of thing so be prepared for that.
  • I was super skeptical when buying this since I tend to be very practical and pedestrian in my taste (ie prefer Alden to Edward Green), usually could care less about cashmere, but I love this cloth so much.
Happy to answer any questions.
Really appreciate the feedback!

A couple follow-up's:

- How would you characterize the density/thickness, and also the hand/finish? Tough to tell from the available photos.

- When you say it's "exponentially better" than other available cashmere, I don't doubt you – but I'd love to know specifically *why*? Just the weight? Or the density? Or the length/quality of the fibers themselves? All of the above? Something else I didn't mention?
 

paborden

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Really appreciate the feedback!

A couple follow-up's:

- How would you characterize the density/thickness, and also the hand/finish? Tough to tell from the available photos.

- When you say it's "exponentially better" than other available cashmere, I don't doubt you – but I'd love to know specifically *why*? Just the weight? Or the density? Or the length/quality of the fibers themselves? All of the above? Something else I didn't mention?
- If I take the front edge of the front opening of the coat and measure the thickness (remember this is two pieces of cloth since it is self-faced), it measures 0.5 cm. So let's say the cloth has a thickness of 0.25 cm. That's pretty thick for cashmere and one of my issues with a lot of modern cashmere besides the hand is that it drapes funny because it is flimsy and thin.

- The cloth is very dense. Almost as dense as a cloth you'd use for a pea coat. Of course, this is how I feel overcoating cloth should be and that a lot of stuff these days is not dense enough. I have a bolt of the Holland and Sherry Classic Overcoating 9819306 mentioned here https://www.permanentstyle.com/2020/10/knitwear-and-necklines-with-ciardi-overcoat-in-british-warm.html and while I don't have it in front of me my recollection is that they are very similar in thickness with maybe an edge to the Everest.

- The hand when compared to other cashmeres is sort of how I'd compare William Lockie or another scottish cashmere with something from Uniqlo or China. Scottish stuff tends to have a less soft, less buttery hand when compared to cheap cashmeres that are flimsy and feel oily and degrade quickly. The scottish stuff is still plenty soft, of course.

- Getting a feel for cashmere (or cloth in general really) takes a lot of practice and I've felt a lot of cashmeres. To give you an idea of the depth of my nerdiness here, I put a complete pause on ordering anything after my first suit until I felt I was able to make an accurate assessment of what cloth was actually suitable, which took a lot of learning. Anyway, most modern cashmere has this flimsy, low thread count, oily feel to it which, though buttery when new, quickly goes south. Higher quality cashmere in my experience is actually less ostensibly modern cashmere-like and rougher, though still softer than wool. The William Lockie stuff is a good analogy. Compare one of the Armoury shawl cardigans (made by William Lockie) with anything at Uniqlo and you'll feel the extreme of what I mean. Most modern mill cashmere is not as bad as Uniqlo but still not great. And, heck, the Everest even blows away some vintage stuff (ie the vintage W Bill cashmere I've handled).

I'm not a wordsmith by any means so hope this all makes sense.

I'll take some photos.
 

bjhofkin

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- If I take the front edge of the front opening of the coat and measure the thickness (remember this is two pieces of cloth since it is self-faced), it measures 0.5 cm. So let's say the cloth has a thickness of 0.25 cm. That's pretty thick for cashmere and one of my issues with a lot of modern cashmere besides the hand is that it drapes funny because it is flimsy and thin.

- The cloth is very dense. Almost as dense as a cloth you'd use for a pea coat. Of course, this is how I feel overcoating cloth should be and that a lot of stuff these days is not dense enough. I have a bolt of the Holland and Sherry Classic Overcoating 9819306 mentioned here https://www.permanentstyle.com/2020/10/knitwear-and-necklines-with-ciardi-overcoat-in-british-warm.html and while I don't have it in front of me my recollection is that they are very similar in thickness with maybe an edge to the Everest.

- The hand when compared to other cashmeres is sort of how I'd compare William Lockie or another scottish cashmere with something from Uniqlo or China. Scottish stuff tends to have a less soft, less buttery hand when compared to cheap cashmeres that are flimsy and feel oily and degrade quickly. The scottish stuff is still plenty soft, of course.

- Getting a feel for cashmere (or cloth in general really) takes a lot of practice and I've felt a lot of cashmeres. To give you an idea of the depth of my nerdiness here, I put a complete pause on ordering anything after my first suit until I felt I was able to make an accurate assessment of what cloth was actually suitable, which took a lot of learning. Anyway, most modern cashmere has this flimsy, low thread count, oily feel to it which, though buttery when new, quickly goes south. Higher quality cashmere in my experience is actually less ostensibly modern cashmere-like and rougher, though still softer than wool. The William Lockie stuff is a good analogy. Compare one of the Armoury shawl cardigans (made by William Lockie) with anything at Uniqlo and you'll feel the extreme of what I mean. Most modern mill cashmere is not as bad as Uniqlo but still not great. And, heck, the Everest even blows away some vintage stuff (ie the vintage W Bill cashmere I've handled).

I'm not a wordsmith by any means so hope this all makes sense.

I'll take some photos.
Thanks very much – extremely helpful.

To be clear, I was thinking about comparing the Everest to something from, say, Joshua Ellis or Johnstons (or even H&S) – not Uniqlo 😂. Given that, any other thoughts?

And yes, photos would absolutely be helpful!
 

classicalthunde

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I believe Vox told me that he paid about $1,000 per meter for Harrisons camelhair overcoating. I bought the same fabric from my tailor but don't remember what I paid.
any idea as to why there would be such a significant difference in the cost of Harrison's camel and the Standeven/Josuha Ellis stuff? It looks like that Joshua Ellis stuff is ~$200 per meter...

Is there a significantly difference in the quality between camelhair fabrics from major brands?
 

bdavro23

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In HK, most tailors can make a jacket out of 2 yards, suit out of 3 yards as long as the client is of average size and the cloth doesn't have large pattern and is not directional like velvet or corduroy. Best advise for those seeking information on how much cloth to bring to their tailor is to ask your tailor.
This is an important point and more cloth is directional than most people think. There was a recent suit posted in the Hemrajani thread where they reversed the plaid on a tone on tone cloth between the front and back of both the jacket and trousers, along with the breast pocket. Its a subtle plaid so it doesnt jump right out at you, but its definitely wrong and doesnt match correctly.

Always best to check whether a cloth has a direction and if it will require anything special in the making.
 

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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any idea as to why there would be such a significant difference in the cost of Harrison's camel and the Standeven/Josuha Ellis stuff? It looks like that Joshua Ellis stuff is ~$200 per meter...

Is there a significantly difference in the quality between camelhair fabrics from major brands?
I may have the price wrong. I don't know. I don't think I would have noticed if the fabric was $500/ meter, but I remember being surprised when Vox told me the price of the cloth. Those interested can message him on Twitter to ask.

I thought the cloth he chose looked nice, so I asked Steed to use the same for my coat. I then just paid the deposit, but the deposit was wrapped up in an order for multiple things. Did not pay attention to the cost of the cloth.
 

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