• We would like to welcome Arterton as an official Affiliate Vendor. Arterton, based in the UK, specializes in fine accessories such as garment bags, umbrellas, and shoe care, as well as fine shoes and boots from Yearn Footwear Please visit their thread and give them a warm welcome.

  • STYLE. COMMUNITY. GREAT CLOTHING.

    Bored of counting likes on social networks? At Styleforum, you’ll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis.

    Click Here to join Styleforum's thousands of style enthusiasts today!

Unfunded Liabilities: a/k/a The Cloth Thread

bjhofkin

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2013
Messages
353
Reaction score
359
Bought the fabric before 2017. Yes, camelhair.
Read somewhere (may have been in one of the 274 LL threads I've been binging on since getting access earlier today) that good camelhair is more or less nonexistent today.

Is that the case?

And if so, why?

Similar to issues with cashmere (love your articles on cashmere and sustainability, by the way)?
 

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
25,718
Reaction score
64,679
Read somewhere (may have been in one of the 274 LL threads I've been binging on since getting access earlier today) that good camelhair is more or less nonexistent today.

Is that the case?

And if so, why?

Similar to issues with cashmere (love your articles on cashmere and sustainability, by the way)?
Not sure.

I once heard from a Brooks Brothers executive, who started working at the company in the 1980s, that fabrics have mysteriously lost thier original quality over the years. When Marks & Spencer took over the company, they tasked him with running a new "testing" system. No item would make it to the Brooks Brothers floor without undergoing a series of tests. These tests included rubbing, washing, exposure to sun, etc. Brooks Brothers didn't have this system before Marks & Spencer's ownership. M&S instituted it as a way to keep quality control on the shop floor.

Such tests were done by independent labs around the world that were not in communication with each other. Often, the process was like this: Brooks Brothers would commission a fabric, and then send the fabric to these labs for testing before sending the final roll to the factory to have the garment made.

This exec told me that, over the years, they found it harder and harder to get the same performance out of their fabrics. He started in the 1980s. Marks & Spencer bought the company in 1988. He ended up leaving the company around 2005. In that twenty-year period, and especially towards the end, he said they tried to replicate the same performance from those fabrics, but was not able to do so. They didn't understand it, as they sourced from the same mills, wove things to the same specs, used the same machines, etc. This was true of all the testing labs.

He surmised that it might have something to do with Australia's long droughts, which started in the early 90s. Or it may have to do with global warming. Or desertification. By the time he left, Brooks Brothers eventually shut down the testing system under the new ownership (Retail Brand Alliance). The mystery was never solved, and they couldn't get the same performance they had in the late 1980s/ early 1990s.
 

ericgereghty

Distinguished Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Messages
6,167
Reaction score
7,984
An obscene amount as compared to what?

there is nothing else available or comparable on the market.

I am not one to spend money frivolously.
I see value in the luxury of this garment.

perhaps a $30,000 vicuña overcoat might be a bit of a stretch.
C’mon lol. You’re proving my point. There is no functional value paying that much for fabric.
I could buy something at REI that would be functionally superior for, what, maybe $500? At that’s setting a high bar, cost wise.
Let’s not lose perspective here. This is an absurdly frivolous hobby. Nothing at all wrong with it, but to pretend otherwise is a bit wacky.
To act like these are prudent choices just seems a bit silly. We’re indulging in the utterly superfluous.
 

brax

Distinguished Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2008
Messages
1,976
Reaction score
2,076
Don't think that's true. I considered subscribing to the original Everest run and also vaguely remember it was about $1,000 per meter. I think I paid about $400 per meter for the jacketing version.

I believe Vox told me that he paid about $1,000 per meter for Harrisons camelhair overcoating. I bought the same fabric from my tailor but don't remember what I paid.
I‘m almost certain that you are correct. $1000/yard is what I remember paying.
 

jonathanS

Distinguished Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2013
Messages
1,383
Reaction score
466
Just now got admitted to the LL forum, so two questions for the assembled throng related to the new Everest run:

- How long, generally speaking, do these cloths take to arrive? (I ask because I sort of have a window over the next ~6 months to get to New York for Liverano trunk shows – but beyond that it might be a little harder for a while.

- What's the minimum length I'd need for a full-length, DB overcoat? 4m, right? Just wanting to make sure before I maybe pull the trigger.
Check with the armoury / liverano

if I was having liverano make me something, I’d be tempted to go all out. Time shouldn’t be a concern - you’re getting an overcoat that will hopefully outlast you & be passed down to a very fortunate son.
 

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
25,718
Reaction score
64,679
Just now got admitted to the LL forum, so two questions for the assembled throng related to the new Everest run:

- How long, generally speaking, do these cloths take to arrive? (I ask because I sort of have a window over the next ~6 months to get to New York for Liverano trunk shows – but beyond that it might be a little harder for a while.

- What's the minimum length I'd need for a full-length, DB overcoat? 4m, right? Just wanting to make sure before I maybe pull the trigger.
It has been a while since I subscribed to a run. But I vaguely remember things getting delivered in a few months, maybe three or four. Best to check with Michael. From what I remember, the challenge is getting enough people to subscribe to a run so they meet the mill's minimum. A mill has to run a certain amount of fabric before they'll set up the machines. If not enough people are interested in a London Lounge cloth, a subscription can sit around for a while before it hits the minimum.

If this is your first meeting with Liverano, you can meet the tailor, get measured, and then have the cloth sent to the workshop later. You don't have to time the cloth delivery with your meeting with the tailor. The only real schedule is that the cloth has to arrive so the tailor can make the basted coat in time for their next trip. Of course, if the cloth doesn't arrive in time for them to make a basted coat, all this means is that you skip that fitting and the process gets pushed back to the next trunk show.

Regarding length, it's always best to check with your tailor. I've always done: 4 meters for a suit or overcoat, 2.5 meters for a sport coat, and 1.5 meters for a pair of trousers. However, I've known people to squeeze a suit out of 3 meters and a sport coat out of 2 meters. Once had someone buy 1.75 meters from me and insisted their tailor could get a sport coat out of this.

Normally, I would say just buy more fabric. Have had people come back to me to order fabric when their tailor messed up, and I have none left. It would be a bummer if you didn't order enough, but spent a considerable amount on 3.5m, hoping to squeeze enough for an overcoat, and then be left without a sleeve. However, at $1000/ meter, shaving 0.5m might be worthwhile. But you take a risk.

I bought 2.5m of the LL double-faced cashmere jacketing. One of my tailors worked with the same cloth for another client and said that it shrunk dramatically under steam. This double-faced cashmere jacketing was woven by Lovat, the same makers of the Everest cashmere overcoating. Might want to check with people to see how their fabric reacted to steam. Vox had his Everest coat tailored through Steed.

Have been sitting on the double-faced cashmere jacketing for a while a haven't had it made up. Am just reporting what I've heard from Steed about that jacketing. If the Everest also shrinks under steam, you may want to err on the side of caution and buy more than the absolute bare minimum.
 

ZRH1

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Messages
227
Reaction score
103
re: weight of 1kg cashmere. How does it feel in perceived weight? I have one in cashmere at around 600 and also a lambswool or camelhair by Fox at 750. The latter feels very important also because it is harder. I was wondering if going for 1000 in cashmere would be similar due to the softness?
 

bjhofkin

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2013
Messages
353
Reaction score
359
It has been a while since I subscribed to a run. But I vaguely remember things getting delivered in a few months, maybe three or four. Best to check with Michael. From what I remember, the challenge is getting enough people to subscribe to a run so they meet the mill's minimum. A mill has to run a certain amount of fabric before they'll set up the machines. If not enough people are interested in a London Lounge cloth, a subscription can sit around for a while before it hits the minimum.

If this is your first meeting with Liverano, you can meet the tailor, get measured, and then have the cloth sent to the workshop later. You don't have to time the cloth delivery with your meeting with the tailor. The only real schedule is that the cloth has to arrive so the tailor can make the basted coat in time for their next trip. Of course, if the cloth doesn't arrive in time for them to make a basted coat, all this means is that you skip that fitting and the process gets pushed back to the next trunk show.

Regarding length, it's always best to check with your tailor. I've always done: 4 meters for a suit or overcoat, 2.5 meters for a sport coat, and 1.5 meters for a pair of trousers. However, I've known people to squeeze a suit out of 3 meters and a sport coat out of 2 meters. Once had someone buy 1.75 meters from me and insisted their tailor could get a sport coat out of this.

Normally, I would say just buy more fabric. Have had people come back to me to order fabric when their tailor messed up, and I have none left. It would be a bummer if you didn't order enough, but spent a considerable amount on 3.5m, hoping to squeeze enough for an overcoat, and then be left without a sleeve. However, at $1000/ meter, shaving 0.5m might be worthwhile. But you take a risk.

I bought 2.5m of the LL double-faced cashmere jacketing. One of my tailors worked with the same cloth for another client and said that it shrunk dramatically under steam. This double-faced cashmere jacketing was woven by Lovat, the same makers of the Everest cashmere overcoating. Might want to check with people to see how their fabric reacted to steam. Vox had his Everest coat tailored through Steed.

Have been sitting on the double-faced cashmere jacketing for a while a haven't had it made up. Am just reporting what I've heard from Steed about that jacketing. If the Everest also shrinks under steam, you may want to err on the side of caution and buy more than the absolute bare minimum.
Thanks, Derek – very helpful.

In terms of timing, I had my first meeting in December and, as you say, would love for Taka/Vitorio to have the cloth I ultimately choose in hand in time to make up a basted coat in time for their next trip. That said…this is a tentpole piece (excuse the cliche) for me, so more important to get it right than fast.

In terms of amount to order, the same basic logic applies – risking not having quite enough in return for saving the incremental cost of that .5m just doesn't seem worth it to me. So 4m it is.
 

ZRH1

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Messages
227
Reaction score
103
In terms of amount to order, the same basic logic applies – risking not having quite enough in return for saving the incremental cost of that .5m just doesn't seem worth it to me. So 4m it is.
Thanks, my tailor advised me for 2.7m (DB Ulster). Are 4m for another type of coat?
 

kolecho

Distinguished Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2004
Messages
3,830
Reaction score
625
It has been a while since I subscribed to a run. But I vaguely remember things getting delivered in a few months, maybe three or four. Best to check with Michael. From what I remember, the challenge is getting enough people to subscribe to a run so they meet the mill's minimum. A mill has to run a certain amount of fabric before they'll set up the machines. If not enough people are interested in a London Lounge cloth, a subscription can sit around for a while before it hits the minimum.

If this is your first meeting with Liverano, you can meet the tailor, get measured, and then have the cloth sent to the workshop later. You don't have to time the cloth delivery with your meeting with the tailor. The only real schedule is that the cloth has to arrive so the tailor can make the basted coat in time for their next trip. Of course, if the cloth doesn't arrive in time for them to make a basted coat, all this means is that you skip that fitting and the process gets pushed back to the next trunk show.

Regarding length, it's always best to check with your tailor. I've always done: 4 meters for a suit or overcoat, 2.5 meters for a sport coat, and 1.5 meters for a pair of trousers. However, I've known people to squeeze a suit out of 3 meters and a sport coat out of 2 meters. Once had someone buy 1.75 meters from me and insisted their tailor could get a sport coat out of this.

Normally, I would say just buy more fabric. Have had people come back to me to order fabric when their tailor messed up, and I have none left. It would be a bummer if you didn't order enough, but spent a considerable amount on 3.5m, hoping to squeeze enough for an overcoat, and then be left without a sleeve. However, at $1000/ meter, shaving 0.5m might be worthwhile. But you take a risk.

I bought 2.5m of the LL double-faced cashmere jacketing. One of my tailors worked with the same cloth for another client and said that it shrunk dramatically under steam. This double-faced cashmere jacketing was woven by Lovat, the same makers of the Everest cashmere overcoating. Might want to check with people to see how their fabric reacted to steam. Vox had his Everest coat tailored through Steed.

Have been sitting on the double-faced cashmere jacketing for a while a haven't had it made up. Am just reporting what I've heard from Steed about that jacketing. If the Everest also shrinks under steam, you may want to err on the side of caution and buy more than the absolute bare minimum.
In HK, most tailors can make a jacket out of 2 yards, suit out of 3 yards as long as the client is of average size and the cloth doesn't have large pattern and is not directional like velvet or corduroy. Best advise for those seeking information on how much cloth to bring to their tailor is to ask your tailor.
 

Featured Sponsor

Friday Challenge "Suited and Booted" VOTE NOW

  • An Acute Style

    Votes: 17 30.9%
  • Bernoulli

    Votes: 16 29.1%
  • Brennenman

    Votes: 3 5.5%
  • cr2596

    Votes: 3 5.5%
  • Crafty Cumbrian

    Votes: 7 12.7%
  • Dapper Philly

    Votes: 3 5.5%
  • Flying Monkey

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • PSB

    Votes: 15 27.3%
  • Roscoe the best 1

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Roscoe the best 2

    Votes: 3 5.5%
  • Roscoe the best 3

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Thin White Duke

    Votes: 5 9.1%
  • Upr_crust 1

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • Upr_crust 2

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • VegasRebel

    Votes: 1 1.8%

Related Threads

Forum statistics

Threads
469,581
Messages
10,050,322
Members
211,809
Latest member
skippypack
Top