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Undergrad education and "prestige"

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Connemara, Dec 8, 2007.

  1. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I went to an Ivy League college for seven years and found I gained immeasurably from the prestige and recognition. Eventually, I decided to enroll too, but they would have none of that. While I was initially depressed, it hasn't really made a difference since no one really asks whether or not you were registered when you tell them where you went to school.
     
  2. Connemara

    Connemara Senior member

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    I went to an Ivy League college for seven years and found I gained immeasurably from the prestige and recognition. Eventually, I decided to enroll too, but they would have none of that. While I was initially depressed, it hasn't really made a difference since no one really asks whether or not you were registered when you tell them where you went to school.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. rockket

    rockket Senior member

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    I'm still a student so I can't speak from personal experience, but my brother is a recent graduate of a top ivy. While he's opted for grad school, where he has landed a pretty "prestigious" internship, many of his friends are making 6 figures right out of undergrad.

    It's difficult to determine conclusively whether his friends' "good fortune" can be attributed to their degree or to the fact that these universities typically draw many students who have the right qualities to be successful. However, I have definitely seen my brother pick up a number of very useful social skills (and he was pretty good to begin with) which I feel were developed particularly because of the unique academic and social environment which these schools provide.
     
  4. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

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    O please... people who tell you that Ivy's are shit didn't get in or they did, and couldn't afford it so now they're jealous. No, they aren't always the best schools in the universe, but you'll get amazing world class profs that won't necessarily be at lesser schools with less money and less prestige. Also, your classmates are likely to be smarter and better connected. Ultimately you want to be in dialogue with good people. Yes, a lot of them will be total nerds, but at least they'll be the best book nerds the world has to offer. You'll also find a number of very intelligent, talented people that you can become friends with.

    Ya, going to a state school would be way more fun, but I wouldn't automatically berate the Ivy league. In I Banking and Law, the statistics really don't lie. Connemara included schools like Stanford, so if you're talking about the top schools, some of which are Ivy's, then yes, it actually does matter a lot for employment. Undergrad probably not so much. However, like I said, it's about the people. Anyone who thinks your education will be just as good at a university where you need like an 1100 SAT and the school's main achievement is being a football factory, you probably won't be likely to find the better minds of your generation there.
     
  5. Connemara

    Connemara Senior member

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    Anyone who thinks your education will be just as good at a university where you need like an 1100 SAT and the school's main achievement is being a football factory, you probably won't be likely to find the better minds of your generation there.
    That's a pretty silly statement. Look at the alumni list of the top 20-30 public universities and try saying the same thing. You can't.
     
  6. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

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    That's a pretty silly statement. Look at the alumni list of the top 20-30 public universities and try saying the same thing. You can't.

    I don't agree. I am pretty sure there's a higher concentration of great achievers from top universities.

    20-30 public universities had better produce a lot of impressive people, just because the statistical chances, given the enormous sizes of some of these schools make it inevitable.

    I'm talking about the average person at an Ivy being better off than the average public school person.
     
  7. Piobaire

    Piobaire Senior member

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    The average person at an Ivy league will network with many people that have "old money" and are members of families that are already well established. They will also have a huge alumni network happy to provide help in job placement. If you are in need of help, cannot cut your own path, this is something you will need. [​IMG] However, state schools? Yes, because U of Michigan...I mean, who would hire an attorney or MBA from there, right? Or see a U of M med school physician. And who would hire an economist from the U of Chicago, right? Just someone that could not get into Harvard, right? And MIT...what a bunch of know nothings! Stanford? Forget about it! There is no doubt attending an Ivy is very valuable, for much more than just the education. There is also no doubt that the long history of say, hiring for Wall St. from the Ivies, is a help to the graduates. But the thought that if you get your MIS from say, U of Arizona (Top 5 MIS programs for nearly 20 years straight), you will not get heavily recruited by Silicon Valley is just wrong. Ivy has its definite non-educational perks, no doubt mixes you with the world's movers and shakers, but educational rigor? You can get that at more than just the Ivy League.
     
  8. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    When we recruit for our technical positions (software engineering mostly), we find a much higher percentage of students in certain schools that are qualified and do well in the long term. This is over a 14-year period since I've been involved. The record over 25 years is about the same.

    Top schools consistently include Caltech, CMU, Cornell, Harvey Mudd, MIT, and Rice. The rest are hit-and-miss, varying from year to year, and doesn't really depend on whether it's an Ivy or a state school, though some are starting to be consistent (Cal Poly SLO, Stanford, UIUC), and some of this certainly is due to us learning how to work a particular school's recruiting system.

    We've found that there are always good people at each school who will rise to the top no matter what their circumstances. It's just that the good schools have higher concentrations of these people.

    --Andre
     
  9. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

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    The average person at an Ivy league will network with many people that have "old money" and are members of families that are already well established. They will also have a huge alumni network happy to provide help in job placement. If you are in need of help, cannot cut your own path, this is something you will need. [​IMG]

    However, state schools? Yes, because U of Michigan...I mean, who would hire an attorney or MBA from there, right? Or see a U of M med school physician. And who would hire an economist from the U of Chicago, right? Just someone that could not get into Harvard, right? And MIT...what a bunch of know nothings! Stanford? Forget about it!

    There is no doubt attending an Ivy is very valuable, for much more than just the education. There is also no doubt that the long history of say, hiring for Wall St. from the Ivies, is a help to the graduates. But the thought that if you get your MIS from say, U of Arizona (Top 5 MIS programs for nearly 20 years straight), you will not get heavily recruited by Silicon Valley is just wrong. Ivy has its definite non-educational perks, no doubt mixes you with the world's movers and shakers, but educational rigor? You can get that at more than just the Ivy League.


    Umm... aren't UofM, UChicago, Stanford and MIT private schools? I'm pretty sure I mentioned top-non Ivy schools (like when I wrote Stanford). Also, there's a big difference between UCBerkley and Ohio St.

    Also, I never said your schooling will be better at any Ivy. With the exception of a great prof, you can probably learn just as much by reading good books. My thing is meeting people and networking. For me, there's no better places for that than the Ivy's, and schools like Stanford, Duke, UChicago etc...
     
  10. thinman

    thinman Senior member

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    O please... people who tell you that Ivy's are shit didn't get in or they did, and couldn't afford it so now they're jealous. No, they aren't always the best schools in the universe, but you'll get amazing world class profs that won't necessarily be at lesser schools with less money and less prestige. Also, your classmates are likely to be smarter and better connected. Ultimately you want to be in dialogue with good people. Yes, a lot of them will be total nerds, but at least they'll be the best book nerds the world has to offer. You'll also find a number of very intelligent, talented people that you can become friends with.

    Ya, going to a state school would be way more fun, but I wouldn't automatically berate the Ivy league. In I Banking and Law, the statistics really don't lie. Connemara included schools like Stanford, so if you're talking about the top schools, some of which are Ivy's, then yes, it actually does matter a lot for employment. Undergrad probably not so much. However, like I said, it's about the people. Anyone who thinks your education will be just as good at a university where you need like an 1100 SAT and the school's main achievement is being a football factory, you probably won't be likely to find the better minds of your generation there.



    O please...re-read my post and you'll see that I, for one, have never written that the Ivy's are "shit", because I don't believe it.

    There is some truth to what Violinist wrote--not that being at the same school as "amazing world-class profs" is worth much, but being around outstanding students who push you and teach each other can be an incredible experience.

    My own experience in grad school, at an Ivy League school incidentally, is that my advisor was almost totally inaccessible. He was so busy traveling the world convincing people that he was one of "the better minds of your generation" that I spoke with him for a total of 2 hours 50 minutes during my first 3 years of grad school. He carefully cultivates a reputation as a teacher, but during my 5 years in grad school, he taught class for a grand total of 1 semester. He team-taught the class with an assistant prof who took care of all the paperwork, office hours, and lectured when The Big Man was out of town, i.e. the assistant prof did all the work except for delivering half a dozen lectures. So passing a great mind on his way to the airport is unlikely to contribute much to your education. The best thing about my experience was learning from all the amazing people, who, like me at the time, were star-struck by the man's reputation.

    Violinist, in your subsequent post, you answer the wrong question for someone considering which school to attend for an undergraduate education. Students shouldn't care about the statistics regarding high-achievers who graduated from X school. Students should ask, "what value does X school add to my educational experience?" The answer is a very individual one. Personally, I believe many students are best served by a small, highly selective liberal arts college, where the profs are amazing and generally very accessible. The disadvantage of such a school is a relative lack of advanced classes and research opportunities during senior year. And before jumping to any conclusions about my background, you might like to know that my experience also includes a BS from a highly selective, small school.
     
  11. Connemara

    Connemara Senior member

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    Umm... aren't UofM, UChicago, Stanford and MIT private schools? I'm pretty sure I mentioned top-non Ivy schools (like when I wrote Stanford). Also, there's a big difference between UCBerkley and Ohio St.
    Michigan is a public school.
     
  12. Piobaire

    Piobaire Senior member

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    Umm... aren't UofM, UChicago, Stanford and MIT private schools? I'm pretty sure I mentioned top-non Ivy schools (like when I wrote Stanford). Also, there's a big difference between UCBerkley and Ohio St.
    Umm, pretty sure you just said:
    O please... people who tell you that Ivy's are shit didn't get in or they did, and couldn't afford it so now they're jealous
    Yes, if you want to nationally pick the best schools and include them in your set, that's just fine. But they ain't Ivy. Also, U of M is not private. So what exactly is your set criteria? Ivy? Private? Or just good? If "just good" is your set criteria, I agree with you. But your quote specifically referenced Ivy.
     
  13. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

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    Umm, pretty sure you just said:



    Yes, if you want to nationally pick the best schools and include them in your set, that's just fine. But they ain't Ivy. Also, U of M is not private. So what exactly is your set criteria? Ivy? Private? Or just good? If "just good" is your set criteria, I agree with you. But your quote specifically referenced Ivy.


    No, I included Stanford in my post as one of several "prestigious" schools, because that's what Connemara did. I'm pretty sure that it isn't an Ivy league either, but he lumped it in with schools that asian kids will kill themselves if they don't get into them. I mentioned UofM because I have a friend doing grad school there and I know it's competitive.

    In my "list" would be schools that are highly competitive and are usually full of driven, goal oriented people. That's what I'm talking about. People tend to lump in "ivy league" schools with places like UChicago, Stanford, John's Hopkins, NYU etc... I thought I made that clear but obviously I didn't.

    I maintain that the people around you are the most important thing, so that's why I would prefer schools which are highly selective, even for undergrad. I also know there's all these schools like Amherst, Williams or something, and Middlebury. Don't really know much about them, but in any case, I was talking about great, prestigious schools in general (since Connemara in his original post mentioned Stanford, which is not an ivy league, but is prestigious).
     
  14. RJman

    RJman Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I think we need to create a class of poster who isn't quite a troll, but is a tar baby.
     
  15. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

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    Michigan is a public school.

    Ok, the rest aren't. Who cares. If I had to go to a public school I'd probably go to UT or Berkley, UT mostly becuase it would be really fun and Austin is a great city.
     
  16. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    . People tend to lump in "ivy league" schools with places like UChicago, Stanford, John's Hopkins, NYU etc... I thought I made that clear but obviously I didn't.

    .



    sloppy, careless people....
     
  17. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

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    sloppy, careless people....

    Well then blame Connemara... but anyways, there's more than just those 8 Ivy's (among which there's a stratification) which get a lot of attention, and he's right for placing a place like Stanford in the same league.
     
  18. Piobaire

    Piobaire Senior member

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    No, I included Stanford in my post as one of several "prestigious" schools, because that's what Connemara did. I'm pretty sure that it isn't an Ivy league either, but he lumped it in with schools that asian kids will kill themselves if they don't get into them. I mentioned UofM because I have a friend doing grad school there and I know it's competitive.

    In my "list" would be schools that are highly competitive and are usually full of driven, goal oriented people. That's what I'm talking about. People tend to lump in "ivy league" schools with places like UChicago, Stanford, John's Hopkins, NYU etc... I thought I made that clear but obviously I didn't.

    I maintain that the people around you are the most important thing, so that's why I would prefer schools which are highly selective, even for undergrad. I also know there's all these schools like Amherst, Williams or something, and Middlebury. Don't really know much about them, but in any case, I was talking about great, prestigious schools in general (since Connemara in his original post mentioned Stanford, which is not an ivy league, but is prestigious).


    You did mention Stanford but you made such a specific comment to the Ivy that I thought possibly you were conflating them, just as you have talked about people tend to do. I agree, the people around you are important, as are the cadre of alumni.

    Also, we need to create a class of poster that is not troll, per se, but merely comments on the posters more often than the content. Oh wait, I hear there's a whole website devoted to that, but it's fairly noir.
     
  19. RJman

    RJman Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Also, we need to create a class of poster that is not troll, per se, but merely comments on the posters more often than the content. Oh wait, I hear there's a whole website devoted to that, but it's fairly noir.
    I'm just trying to tell every poster on this thread but one or two that there are certain posters whom dealing with or responding to only is going to drag you down into their own inescapable stupidity.
     
  20. Piobaire

    Piobaire Senior member

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    I'm just trying to tell every poster on this thread but one or two that there are certain posters whom dealing with or responding to only is going to drag you down into their own inescapable stupidity.

    Oh, did you feel that was directed at you? Now why would that be? I certainly did not feel your post was directed at me, that you were telling me I am inescapably stupid, as that would be an unprovoked ad hom, something I hear is frowned on.
     

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