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Unattractiveness and the discussion of style

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by thealbatross, Jun 23, 2006.

  1. thealbatross

    thealbatross Active Member

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    I note that you guys are blasting the source, not the content. Maybe it'd be better if we all just got nose jobs? [​IMG] This thread needed an injection of sanity. Dudes who get plastic surgery creep me out more than nerds who get laid.

    I find your statement more bluntly offensive than anything I have written here; the poster who was forthright with his own plastic surgery had a lot of courage to come forward and say as much, and possibly to the benefit of many other members here who have considered similar measures to improve their appearance; even if they are not willing to say as much publicly.

    Do you consider what in many cases could be considered by many as needless breast augmentation to be "creepy"? If so I apologize in advance for assuming you apply a double standard.

    On a related point: I have not looked into it but I think it's possible that liposuction could cost as much as a few bespoke suits, yet both might be pursued by a portly man for the same reasons. It might even be argued that liposuction is more practical and cost effective in the long run, so why should this not be considered a legitimate alternative for someone who goes bespoke for the reason of weight?
     
  2. mensimageconsultant

    mensimageconsultant Senior member

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    Willie, I am really struck by your candidness, to the point it makes me wonder how many other members have had, or seriously considered having cosmetic surgery. I personally have only gone as far as purchasing a customized hair piece but I am considering hair implants in the near future, if my budget permits there are some aspects of my face that I would surgically improve, perhaps I should cut down on my shoe purchases as I feel my money would be better spent on changes that would more substantially improve my self-esteem. Thank you for sharing.

    This is self-serving: via consultations, the company does give advice with regard to cosmetic surgey, if the information is wanted. TV news investigative reports have found that cosmetic surgeons seldom will dissuade patients from getting 'work' done. Which helps explain the many fake-looking people out there. (And tactful people, of course, are loathe to comment on the cosmetic 'needs' of friends and family.)

    Also, it's possible that the rise in cosmetic surgery is due in part to a loss of knowledge about style. Many 'flaws' can be covered up without surgery and the related hassles. (Conversely, it's likely that increased attention to attire is a common post-surgical aesthetic benefit.)

    Even when it makes people objectively more attractive, cosmetic surgery might not be helpful aesthetically. As LA guy points out, distinctiveness does count for something. Given that people often gravitate among others on their level of attractiveness, often the slightly unusual-looking person will receive more attention than the counterpart whose appearance is more conventional. Clothing can have that effect, too. Research confirms the facial distinctiveness point. (Slight deviance from the averaged-ideal face is why Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie are considered very attractive.) The probable reasons are inference of personality from appearance and outbreeding.
     
  3. mbc

    mbc Senior member

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    On a related point: I have not looked into it but I think it's possible that liposuction could cost as much as a few bespoke suits, yet both might be pursued by a portly man for the same reasons. It might even be argued that liposuction is more practical and cost effective in the long run, so why should this not be considered a legitimate alternative for someone who goes bespoke for the reason of weight?
    Well, for one, the health risks of bespoke suits are certainly a bit lower than those of liposuction (except for the heart attack that might follow being presented with the bill). Not to mention that liposuction does more to fix the symptom than the cause, but that's a different discussion.
     
  4. mensimageconsultant

    mensimageconsultant Senior member

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    Another viewpoint:



    http://www.the-approach.net/n-lesson-2-vac.php



    While the gist of it might be accurate, it predictably underestimates the proven importance of appearance. In fact, Neil Strauss improved his style while becoming a "player."

    Furthermore, while that kind of behavior can compensate somewhat for some aesthetic deficits, it isn't necessarily the lifestyle a man could, or wants to, have. For example, many men don't have the time and energy to spend hours at clubs and bars playing the so-called "numbers game."

    Lastly, admittedly not having read the book, it's believed that during the experiment many women did reject Mr. Strauss on the basis of his looks.
     
  5. Bradford

    Bradford Senior member

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    I would disagree with this statement. I believe that mid-30's to mid-50's is probably when most men look their best. Take a look at male news anchors or TV talk show hosts. Most are in this age range and look better than the young-20's reporter on the local weekend news.

    It's like the old saying, "men mature, women age".

    And in fact, those men often have more success in pursuing the young, beautiful women than they did previously. Didn't anyone else notice that an awful lot of the really good-looking women were always going out with the older guys?
     
  6. willie

    willie Member

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    I would disagree with this statement. I believe that mid-30's to mid-50's is probably when most men look their best. Take a look at male news anchors or TV talk show hosts. Most are in this age range and look better than the young-20's reporter on the local weekend news.

    It's like the old saying, "men mature, women age".

    And in fact, those men often have more success in pursuing the young, beautiful women than they did previously. Didn't anyone else notice that an awful lot of the really good-looking women were always going out with the older guys?


    News anchors are not a reasonable sample of the male population. My statement is irrelevant in regard to very attractive or wealthy men. These exceptions comprise maybe 5-10% of the male population. I believe that my statement is valid as applies to the other 90%.

    Older women have a very tough time meeting decent men because of this. Most of the men their own age desire much younger women; and men also have a shorter life span, so demographics further compound this problem. Once again, this does not apply to the most attractive 5%. Older guys who are lucky enough to be attracted to women their own age are very lucky, plenty of great women are eagerly available.

    I have also met many caucasian men who are incredibly hung up on Asian women. See a lot of older men in California expending great time and energy pursuing much younger Asian women. A lot of these men end up with mail order brides.
     
  7. willie

    willie Member

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    Well, at least you haven't fallen into the trap of relying on overgeneralizations . . .

    Valid point. Curious as to which of my points you find most objectionable?
     
  8. willie

    willie Member

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    Well, I was mostly just teasing you. I don't actually find any objectionable in the sense of being offensive, and to a certain extent I was tweaking you for a tendency toward overgeneralization that many people have been engaging in here. I think I disagree with the assertion that 95% of guys are more attractive in their youth than in the 30-50 range. I actually think a lot of guys are at their best in the latter range (or even a bit beyond in some cases). Some of that may be a reflection of the confidence and presence that come with accumulated professional and financial success, but not all of it. I freely admit the fact that I'm in the 30-50 range may color my judgment, but I'm just calling like I see it (and like many women I know tell me they see it).
    IMHO, this actually holds true for both sexes. Do I see college-aged girls that make my eyes pop out of my head? Sure. Do I see college-aged guys who I would like to trade bodies with for a night? You bet. There's a quality to early adulthood that fades quickly and is never recaptured. But there are elements of elegance and beauty that are rarely found in someone so young, as well. If I made a list of the women I consider to be most beautiful, more of them would be closer to (or even beyond) my age than would be, say, 24 or younger. Similarly, if I made a list of guys I would most like to look like, I suspect I'd come up with more guys who are older than me than guys who are younger.
    But hey, different strokes and all that . . .


    Well stated. Your perspective is actually very similar to mine. I did not mean to state that 95% of men were much more attractive when they were younger. My position is that no more than 5-10% of men have much of a chance when pursuing much younger and very attractive women; and yet I regularly see older guys making fools of themselves in such pursuit. Seems to me that these fellows just have no idea who they are, completely unrealistic.

    I also prefer women who are close to my own age; and I am also more attractive than when I was younger. Hard for me to understand why so many men endure the anguish and hopelessness of pursuing women who are obviously out of their class.
     
  9. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    Hard for me to understand why so many men endure the anguish and hopelessness of pursuing women who are obviously out of their class.

    If you're talking about physical attractiveness, I think that you are dead wrong here. While I definitely agree that there tend to be attractive couples and unattractive couples, I think that there are two main reasons for this, neither related to native attractiveness.

    1) Couples tend to be mirror lifestyle choices. It is rare to find couples where only one partner is very physically active, for example, and it is likewise rare to find couples where only one partner care about their appearance.

    2) People tend to "settle" for someone they think of as equal (not only in appearance, but in achievement, etc...)

    However, 1) only follows after there is a couple, and there are plenty of men and women who have, let's call it, skewed self perception.

    Why are all you uglies cluttering up the forum anyway [​IMG]
     
  10. willie

    willie Member

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    Actually, I read most of the posts as focusing on content, despite the original poster's need to explain away disagreement (or lack of participation for that matter) as a symptom of denial or psychological weakness on the part of the poster. I agree with you about the surgery. F'ing creepy - and usually quite obvious. (Except, I suppose, when it isn't.)

    I can understand why many people have very negative feelings about plastic surgery. There are good and bad reasons to have plastic surgery.

    There are plenty of men who would prefer a shorter hair style but grow their hair long because they have been teased about their protruding ears: I see no reason why they should not have this corrected through a very simple procedure. This is actually a very common procedure for men.

    I had a favorite uncle when I was a teenager who was a very handsome man except that he had a very long, ugly nose. Many of the family members ridiculed him for considering plastic surgery. I told him to have the ugly nose fixed and he was grateful to find some support. He found a good surgeon and looked great for the rest of his life.

    The work of a good plastic surgeon is usually not obvious. Where some people get in trouble in when they unreasonably seek perfection. I do not see anything wrong with correcting basic flaws that greatly impair one's appearance, and possibly quality of life.

    The one procedure that many older people seem to go overboard with is eye surgery. I notice a lot of people who always look surprised because their eyes seem to be open too wide. Some people also have too many facelifts and do not look at all natural. Also strange to see a slim, petite woman with massive breasts. Generally speaking, you do not notice the good work. For this reason people think all surgery is obvious.

    Severe maloclusion can also cause various problems. For some people crowded, protruding teeth destroy the appearance of the entire lower half of the face and jaw, can also cause serious speech impediments. I currently know one woman who would be beautiful except that she looks so horrible every time she opens her mouth.

    In contemporary American society it is no longer necessary to go through life with these disadvantages
     
  11. tiger02

    tiger02 Senior member

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    I find your statement more bluntly offensive than anything I have written here;
    I'm sorry you're so easily offended. You called everyone ugly, I called a small subset creepy. Willie seems confident in his choice and able to defend himself. Why is it that criticism only ever offends those who were not the target?

    Creepy no, kind of gross yes. And like it or not, there is a double standard.
     
  12. thealbatross

    thealbatross Active Member

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    Why is it that criticism only ever offends those who were not the target?.

    That's a good question; I could of asked the same about those who were offended by my original statement, yet were unwilling to have a truthful conversation about their own self image as it related to their own attractiveness issues.
     
  13. tiger02

    tiger02 Senior member

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    Yes, you could *have*. I agree that there were many touchy responses.
     
  14. thealbatross

    thealbatross Active Member

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    Yes, you could *have*. I agree that there were many touchy responses.


    I am glad we agree on something. I was originally offended by your statement because Willie was going the distance to discuss his own issues in a very forthright manner, much in the way that I intended to when I started this topic and felt that his experience with plastic surgery should of been given a bit more respect than being called creepy, or whatever other off handed remarks were made. While I am certain that there must be other members who have had or considered having plastic surgery; I very much doubt that they would say as much now because of such comments.
     
  15. tiger02

    tiger02 Senior member

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    Altering one's appearance through surgery is a pretty major undertaking. If one is not utterly confident in the choice, it is probably not a good fit. I would expect that someone considering a procedure would be more comfortable discussing it with anonymous strangers on the internet than he would simply showing up at his weekly bridge meet with a new nose.

    I still discuss suit-shirt-tie pairings on the board, regardless of how they have been mocked. I am confident in my choices so am not too worried about, again, a host of anonymous strangers' opinions of me.
     
  16. Lucky Strike

    Lucky Strike Senior member

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    Do you consider what in many cases could be considered by many as needless breast augmentation to be "creepy"? If so I apologize in advance for assuming you apply a double standard.
    Well, there are some very creepy-looking extreme boob-jobs out there, IMHO.
     
  17. johnapril

    johnapril Senior member

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    Death becomes the archbishop.
     
  18. Lucky Strike

    Lucky Strike Senior member

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    Death becomes the archbishop.
    You shouldn't smoke those things, you know.
     
  19. Margaret

    Margaret Senior member

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    I can understand why many people have very negative feelings about plastic surgery. There are good and bad reasons to have plastic surgery.

    There are plenty of men who would prefer a shorter hair style but grow their hair long because they have been teased about their protruding ears: I see no reason why they should not have this corrected through a very simple procedure. This is actually a very common procedure for men.

    I had a favorite uncle when I was a teenager who was a very handsome man except that he had a very long, ugly nose. Many of the family members ridiculed him for considering plastic surgery. I told him to have the ugly nose fixed and he was grateful to find some support. He found a good surgeon and looked great for the rest of his life.

    The work of a good plastic surgeon is usually not obvious. Where some people get in trouble in when they unreasonably seek perfection. I do not see anything wrong with correcting basic flaws that greatly impair one's appearance, and possibly quality of life.

    The one procedure that many older people seem to go overboard with is eye surgery. I notice a lot of people who always look surprised because their eyes seem to be open too wide. Some people also have too many facelifts and do not look at all natural. Also strange to see a slim, petite woman with massive breasts. Generally speaking, you do not notice the good work. For this reason people think all surgery is obvious.

    Severe maloclusion can also cause various problems. For some people crowded, protruding teeth destroy the appearance of the entire lower half of the face and jaw, can also cause serious speech impediments. I currently know one woman who would be beautiful except that she looks so horrible every time she opens her mouth.

    In contemporary American society it is no longer necessary to go through life with these disadvantages


    Forgive me, but this sounds like a sales pitch.
     
  20. tiger02

    tiger02 Senior member

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    Forgive me, but this sounds like a sales pitch.
    It's a discussion of his own issues in a very forthright manner! It should be given a bit more respect than being called creepy, or whatever other off handed remarks were made!

    Interesting conversation, and to think the two primaries are brand new members...just, wow man.

    (edit: no, I don't think anyone in this thread is a troll. Other than maybe me.)
     

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