1. And... we're back. You'll notice that all of your images are back as well, as are our beloved emoticons, including the infamous :foo: We have also worked with our server folks and developers to fix the issues that were slowing down the site.

    There is still work to be done - the images in existing sigs are not yet linked, for example, and we are working on a way to get the images to load faster - which will improve the performance of the site, especially on the pages with a ton of images, and we will continue to work diligently on that and keep you updated.

    Cheers,

    Fok on behalf of the entire Styleforum team
    Dismiss Notice

Turnbull & Asser

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by royal618, Jun 3, 2006.

  1. brescd01

    brescd01 Senior member

    Messages:
    543
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2004
    In the eternal search for the "properly slim-fitting" RTW shirt, I cannot imagine why anyone well-informed would spend more than 100-or-so dollars on a RTW shirt, rather than just get a made-to-measure or bespoke shirt. Of course, maybe other peoples' time is more valuable than my own, but I need only five minutes to order more shirts from Jantzen, and I cannot imagine that MyTailor or Chan are more difficult. Even the best RTW shirts are such crap-shoots where fit is concerned, they change their fit for every retail customer (or seem to). Barba, a shirt whose quality is superb, is terrible in this regard.
     
  2. dennisdomino

    dennisdomino Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    51
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2006
    In the eternal search for the "properly slim-fitting" RTW shirt, I cannot imagine why anyone well-informed would spend more than 100-or-so dollars on a RTW shirt, rather than just get a made-to-measure or bespoke shirt. Of course, maybe other peoples' time is more valuable than my own, but I need only five minutes to order more shirts from Jantzen, and I cannot imagine that MyTailor or Chan are more difficult. Even the best RTW shirts are such crap-shoots where fit is concerned, they change their fit for every retail customer (or seem to). Barba, a shirt whose quality is superb, is terrible in this regard.

    I agree. Many people here mentioned elements that one RTW shirt has that the others don't have, but if you get decent mtm or bespoke you can combine all of the details that you like in any ready-to- wear shirt. I wear a big watch and several of you mentioned the problem with the T&A shirts being too tight in the wrist. I just have my mtm shirts made with a wider left cuff and they slide right over. The fit, the collar style, everything made just the way I like it. I delight in fact, in not having to deal with rtw shirts ever again and in many cases I am paying less than I would have for Charvet or T&A!
     
  3. RJman

    RJman Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    18,647
    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Location:
    In the not too distant future
    Well Bresch, convenience and speed are important. Bespoke or MTM are bigger crap shoots than RTW, particularly when you are measuring yourself and sending instructions away. Not everyone has your certain Bresch savantism.

    I find it a tad depressing that on these forums we call Zegna and Lorenzini average. I don't agree with that assessment of Lorenzini (and don't own any Zegna shirts). T&A are very good shirts. With the exchange rate the prices are very high, but the cottons are uniformly good and the buttons are true deep shell mother of pearl, unlike any other Jermyn St maker, including Hilditch, who uses troca shells (albeit better quality ones than the rest of the street). I think H&K is better made, but it lacks the theatricality of T&A. Said theatricality is another thing the casual customer may not be able to conjure in a self-designed bespoke/MTM shirt. T&A shirts have choices of daringly bold patterns. They have the elongated 3-button cuff (which I have never seen or worn except with all buttons buttoned) and a high collar stance with slightly rounded points which is quite elegant. Despite double-needle stitching in places, the quality is there. In contrast, H&K, the best of the other Jermyn St makers (leaving out Budd) has a very classic, low-key spread and handsome rounded double cuffs or single-button barrel cuffs.
    AFAIK, T&A likes a close-fitting cuff, even in bespoke. However, what I have read about their bespoke would disincline me to order from them, or indeed from any British shirtmaker except maybe Budd, David Gale, Stephen Lachter or Robert Whitaker at Dege, or maybe the Thomas Mahon Englishcut MTM shirts.
     
  4. coachvu

    coachvu Senior member

    Messages:
    628
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    I don't believe that is accurate. I just flipped through my copy of "Turnbull & Asser: The Pedigree and Style of a Very English Institution," which is something of an official history of the firm, and everyone pictured with the 3 button cuff has all three buttons buttoned.

    Not everyone actually does this, John Kerry included. However, I read several old articles in the NY Times in which a fashion editor went to T&A for bespoke shirts. In various articles, the tailor he worked with mentioned that only the middle button was supposed to be buttoned, although many people button all 3.
     
  5. coachvu

    coachvu Senior member

    Messages:
    628
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Also, as far as price, I think shirts are about $100 at T&A's sale, which starts tomorrow, which is very reasonable.
     
  6. brescd01

    brescd01 Senior member

    Messages:
    543
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2004
    Jantzen in 10 days. And I would say, of the people who actually think about their shirts on the fora, I probably know the least of anyone. Given the cat-like patience we know you possess RJ, and your location in Paris, unless you can try on the shirt before you buy it, RTW is the biggest crap shoot of all. Of all the 46 shirts I have bought, I have had many more surprises with RTW than I had with bespoke. The only way in which bespoke could pose a surprise is with an expensive maker that is chisseling (like T&A is reputed to do) and won't take responsibility for their mistakes or problems, which at the prices they charge, is unforgivable. Jantzen disavows every shirt it makes, but at $45 per, this is not an issue.

    Case in point: I ordered two shirts by Barba from Yoox. Identical sizes. Both arrived with absurdly long sleeves, I expected that. But one came with darts, which pressed against my spare tire. I will have to fix that, wasting time and expense. Neither has pockets, limiting their utility.
     
  7. coachvu

    coachvu Senior member

    Messages:
    628
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Jantzen in 10 days. And I would say, of the people who actually think about their shirts on the fora, I probably know the least of anyone. Given the cat-like patience we know you possess RJ, and your location in Paris, unless you can try on the shirt before you buy it, RTW is the biggest crap shoot of all. Of all the 46 shirts I have bought, I have had many more surprises with RTW than I had with bespoke. The only way in which bespoke could pose a surprise is with an expensive maker that is chisseling (like T&A is reputed to do) and won't take responsibility for their mistakes or problems, which at the prices they charge, is unforgivable. Jantzen disavows every shirt it makes, but at $45 per, this is not an issue.

    Case in point: I ordered two shirts by Barba from Yoox. Identical sizes. Both arrived with absurdly long sleeves, I expected that. But one came with darts, which pressed against my spare tire. I will have to fix that, wasting time and expense. Neither has pockets, limiting their utility.


    It seems that very few people on the forum are getting Jantzen shirts in ten days. Also, snagging a T&A sea island cotton shirt for $100 is a great deal. The fabric is much nicer than that offered by Jantzen.
     
  8. brescd01

    brescd01 Senior member

    Messages:
    543
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2004
    Ahhh, the one thing I do right. I have said it repeatedly and no one listens to me, but if you dispense with the web site altogether and with email, and call Ricky on the phone, all your problems would disappear. He speaks and writes English MUCH better than he reads it.

    But Jantzen is one of at least three such outfits. Chan and MyTailor do the same thing, with better service (reportedly).

    Of course, T&A @ $100 is a great deal. I said that spending significantly MORE than $100 was crazy on RTW, unless you can be absolutely sure of the pattern and fit. Carlo Franco would be a good example of someone who is going to be absolutely reliable. I cannot compare the brands (I have too little experience) but I have a lot of experience with Barba, and they are terrible in this regard, consistency of fit.
     
  9. Tomasso

    Tomasso Senior member

    Messages:
    4,078
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    T&A mentioned that only the middle button was supposed to be buttoned, although many people button all 3.

    I was a T&A customer and I was told the same thing by both the London and NYC stores.
     
  10. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Senior member

    Messages:
    6,134
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2005
    Maybe $250 or $300 at the very bottom end. I think the cheapest bespoke is $325.



    The T&A shirts I have are rather long lasting. However for that type of money you can get the same fabrics in 100s from a good custom shirt maker.

    The principle attraction of T&A shirts are the extra high collars and the Carnaby Street/ Are You Being Served, swinging London colors...yeah baby.

    Turnbull's clumsy way of sewing buttons on make them unpleasant to button. At least the ones I have which are around 7-8 years old.

    I have shirts from Charvet and H&K that have held up also... but again for that kind of money you can go to what I and most in the know consider the best custom shirt maker in the USA, Paris Custom Shirts in Manhattan. They will be able to offer the same and much better cottons in the same, similar or better colors and patterns and weaves that T&A uses. I wrote an article on them and I have another one about to launch:

    http://www.filmnoirbuff.com/article/is-paris-burning

    Also recommended but making a very different type of shirt which aligns itself more with the natural shouldered tradition is:

    Seewaldt & Bauman
    516-379-8724

    1741 Petit Avenue
    Merrick, NY 11566


    If you are on more of a budget, there is no reason not to try CEGO. Shirtmaven understands the various styles and looks very well and has several different shirt programs at differing costs. He is a cloth aficionado and always has excellent cottons which he's acquired at a bargain and is happy to pass the savings on to you.

    His website is of course:


    http://www.cego.com/
     
  11. hopkins_student

    hopkins_student Senior member

    Messages:
    3,218
    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2004
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I would think the T&A shirts that are double stitched are the same ones at Neiman Marcus...

    Mine came from the Beverly Hills T&A store.
     
  12. grimslade

    grimslade Senior member

    Messages:
    10,875
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Location:
    Back in Black
    Don't forget famous Heeldeetch sales.

    When/where are these famous H&K sales?
     
  13. TCN

    TCN Senior member

    Messages:
    1,505
    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2004
    T&A quality is lousy for what they charge. Similar construction to Pink and Tyrwhitt albeit with slightly nicer fabrics. Also, T&A button attachment is lacking, and if you ever order button-turnback cuffs, they are horrible to fasten (Ascot Chang does a much nicer and cleaner job).

    Another thing worth mentioning is T&A's HORRIBLE customer service. I was a T&A devotee for years (20+ RTW and MTM shirts per year, plus a handful of ties), until the company screwed me out of a tie that I ordered at a Neman's trunk show. It was only one tie, but it's the principle; plus after numerous phone calls and letters to T&A (Andy Gilchrest even tried to help), I got nowhere.

    Ascot Changs are much better shirts for $50 to $75 less retail, and at the same time Nemans does their T&A sale, Saks puts their Hilditches on sale, which blow T&A out of the water, and usually you can find shirts that weren't just clown returns.

    You could say I feel strongly about this. [​IMG]
     
  14. j

    j Senior member Admin

    Messages:
    14,914
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2002
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    When/where are these famous H&K sales?
    In Paris IIRC, you'd have to talk to a certain ex-member to find out exactly. Or maybe RJman or another Freedomphile knows.
     
  15. RJman

    RJman Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    18,647
    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Location:
    In the not too distant future
    H&K has lengthy twice-yearly Sales by Mail via a catalog (get on their mailing list) or through their rather shoddy website (don't ask me the URL; if you can find this website you can find Hilditch's), or their shops on Jermyn St, Knightsbridge, Sloane Street or rue de Rivoli. Most of the Jermyn Street names do, including Harvie and New & Lingwood, as well as the leech/pretender/zombie names like Pink, Hawes & Curtis and Haines & Bonner which are simply now names with inferior quality at a Jermyn St address. H&K is the quite simply the best RTW in Jermyn St, with the possible exception of Emma Willis, which is another animal. However, cost pressures have caused a rumored move offshore of most production -- as has been the rumored case for all other Jermyn St names except Turnbull and Budd. Saks, Ben Silver and Best of British Shirts all demand British manufacture of their H&K shirts. The rest bear no country of origin tag. There is little difference in quality that I have seen between the alleged foreign-made H&K and the British-made. Hilditch will either deny non-British manufacture up front or give a very vague answer. There is also a rumor that T&A's sale shirts may be made to a somewhat lower standard, but that's unconfirmed. I think Hilditch is better, but T&A (normal) is very good, and offers things Hilditch won't or can't in RTW, as I mentioned above.
     
  16. redtree00

    redtree00 Senior member

    Messages:
    326
    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Location:
    Yes
    I was at the T&A sale today. I noticed a very small amount of higher thread count shirts that were made in Italy.
    Who makes shirts for T&A in Italy ?
     
  17. zjpj83

    zjpj83 Senior member

    Messages:
    9,452
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Re: the buttoning

    My sister laughed at my buttoning all three, becasue she says all her banker friends say you're only supposed to button the outer two, and leave the middle undone. Go figure.
     
  18. darkoak

    darkoak Senior member

    Messages:
    769
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    C&J shoes are also on sale at T&A today. A few handgrades @ $350 (e.g. Whitehall) and benchgrades @$275. 4th floor.
     
  19. bry2000

    bry2000 Senior member

    Messages:
    2,010
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    RJman, I have recently learned that Saks has discontinued its relationship with H&K (or the other way around or mutually). My guess is you can get good deals at Saks on the H&K shirts (and ties) they are clearing out.

    T&A -- at their London sales at the shop on Jermyn and the concession at Harrods, T&A sells sale shirts that are manufactured to a different standard (for the most part). I always wondered why Harrods put basic patterns on sale. Then I learned those shirts are made for the sale. A select few of the shirts on sale at the Jermyn St store are discontinued old stock of first run shirts. I believe the shirts T&A puts on sale in NY are first run; ie, not made for the sale.

    I have always wondered whether H&K makes shirts specifically for their sales. They claim no, but I wonder.
     
  20. RJman

    RJman Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    18,647
    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Location:
    In the not too distant future
    RJman, I have recently learned that Saks has discontinued its relationship with H&K (or the other way around or mutually). My guess is you can get good deals at Saks on the H&K shirts (and ties) they are clearing out.
    Hm, I wonder if this is the end for Hildeetch.
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by