Discussion in 'Streetwear and Denim' started by impolyt_one, Jan 7, 2011.
Come on MDR!
Sorry for asking a question that is probably answerable by search, but the signal to noise in this thread had dropped way down in the last dozen pages and I just don't have the energy to trawl through it all:
Is the Collared Moto available again? Same design as previously? Colors?
I need to say one thing related to the ridiculous off topic banter going on for the past 20 pages. Sometimes it is the smart move to swallow your pride and not escalate the fight to the next level, especially when you want something from your opponent and he needs nothing from you.
Can't wait for my peacoat. It's turning into peacoat weather around here so anxiously trying to forget I ordered it so I can be elated again when it arrives.
The hardest decision in ordering the jacket? Picking a color. Literally took me hours to decide to go with navy (0). Couldn't even narrow it down before I finally just said, "Fuck it, let's go with navy."
This whole debacle has been about the stupidest conversation ever carried out on styleforum, and I'll summarize once and for all in it's few points:
-I say I am not going to make a shearling jacket because
a) the material cost is fixed, and too high
b) therefore, the the total price would be too high
-Woodyear believes one can name your own price on fixed-price commodities that we buy from another freestanding business, ie the leather, which is so off base and unrealistic that I feel sorry for him having such a weak grip on reality. Example: leather wholesaler wants $15/square for a certain piece of specialized material, Woodyear believes I can go back to him and purchase this for 74% off the wholesaler's wholesale price. lol.
-Woodyear shows me 3 or 4 completely different 'examples' - none of which are even really close to what I have talked about.
-Woodyear says I am out of my mind for my pricing scheme; in reality, no one knows the real figures but me, but anyone with a mind of reason should be able to deduct that my pricing schedule is so low that nobody can even touch me. I then challenge Woodyear to try and do so, and he trolls me by saying that he will. lol.
Realistically, from the standpoint of a business, not just TOJ - nobody should sell their product for less than double what it costs for them to make and ship, free on board. That is just pure logic. This has nothing to do with the actual profit take at the end, this is called covering your ass, which is a step that happens long before I get a cent.
If for some reason WWIII breaks out and the plane carrying all of your TOJ shit out of Korea goes down in the middle of the ocean, guess what? All of those packages I've marked at $20 value (and I do this for everybody's benefit but my own - I do my best so that you don't have to pay customs wherever you live) will be reimbursed to me for $20 value each. I don't have enough to refund a purchase if that happens, because half of the original selling price has already been paid out for raw materials and labor that would end up in the ocean. See? That is why pricing double is not even enough. I am so close to this that it's not funny, it's rather sad actually.
At this level, it is not even so much a safety net for me, as much as it is a service to the customer - it allows the business to have enough in the pot to go back and deliver fully on the promise sold, whatever the circumstance.
If you are working with a fragile material with this many outside variables involved between getting raw material and putting a product in people's hands, you would see that one needs to build in at least enough to cover your ass in the event of unexpected happenings. And this is exactly why I feel sorry for Woodyear - if he is so naive as to believe that unexpected things happen in life, then it's gonna be tears whenever the rock he lives under comes down.
Now that everyone sees my numbers, and sees what I am saying, I do feel like I have been vilified today for needing to cover my costs, but let's look at this in real world terms. This is like, the fundamentals of business 101. I don't know, maybe even far below that level. Does anyone believe they are hired to work at a job so that the company can make exactly enough to cover the cost of a single employee's paycheck, the rent for their cubicle and computer, the electric bill, and not a cent more? lol. It's tough out here in the real world, but let me show you the world of jawns, as it were.
Take, for example, the highly coveted natural leather Tanner, Billykirk, et al belts that people happily pay $80 on up for, sold mostly direct, simple business models. The leather for such a piece would cost about $5. The labor for something like that should cost $5/piece in a factory or less, or whatever you want to pay yourself if you're an Oregon leatherworking hipster. The buckle might be worth $2-5. Shipping should be $5-10. All in all, the basic costs of making a saddle leather belt at present would be about $10-20, depending on factors like your location and your manufacturing model, and at what price you can acquire raw materials... and I don't really see the people of styleforum begrudging Tanner for selling belts at triple or quadruple markup...
If you think that say, Fok's $400 belts are worth even $100 in materials, think again. Same basic cost as above, $10-20 in stuff, plus a bit more for the labor and raw materials to dye and process something. The costs at this level are not particularly high, you are talking about a rivet here, maybe 20 stitches there, some dye and some rags, etc. $20 in raw material cost turns into $40 to cover your ass in case the goods don't even make it to the packaging stage, $40 basic price turns into a wholesale/FOB price of about $150, $150 turns into a third-party boutique price of $400, because they need to basically sell it at $400, worse yet at 30% off, 50% off, or 60% off.
CCP leather jacket: say it costs $5,000 retail, hypothetically. How much does one really think the material cost of that jacket is? I can tell you that it's the same as above, but even more exaggerated.
back to earth here, take for example Mauro and WvsG (he is probably cringing as he reads this, sorry dude) - He wanted to sell his buttondown shirts for $175 - and you know what? After you tabulate all the money factors, then that is realistically the price they should be. You can walk into Costco and buy $20 buttondown shirts all day, but unless you are Woodyear with no grip on reality and how the world works, you just can't compare these things. If Costco sells a $20 shirt, they are probably paying less than $5 to get it to the store shelves. I (and trust me on this, I make shirts too) am pretty sure Mauro can't even buy a yard of fabric plus the dye he needs on it for $5... and you need two and a half yards to make a shirt. So there you go.
He and I have spoken briefly in the past about matters like this, and out on the east coast of the USA, prices are really not so different from what I would pay in Korea. There are a lot more reasons for that, that involve China and the new world order, commodities trading, yada yada yada, but to keep it basic, commodities in the real world are priced fairly similarly nowadays. Labor, not quite, but the difference is not what one who has never been overseas would tend to think, either. At the end of the day, people in first world economies need to go to work and pull down about a hundred bucks a day for their work, in order to live.
If you can't figure out the above, let me tl;dr this for you, it's 1+1 = 2.
btw, read the post above - it's probably the most interesting thing you will read in SW+D.
My asshole is fucking immaculate, you know why? I have a fancy Japanese toilet that keeps my ass sanitary after every poop. Get on my level, you filthy peasant.
Sounds like a basic run down in a chapter in one of my text books. The guy sounds like some hot shot recent graduate with a 4.0 GPA who thinks he completely understands the logistics of things, until a monkey wrench from the real world is launched at his head.
I'm surprised you put up with that crap for so long. I would've just asked Fok to IP ban him to eliminate the headache. Dudes like him are common during my time on Niketalk, they come back under different screen names.
Dude, Drew...have you thought about doing a chesterfield with the fur collar that you use on your bombers, but perhaps not as exaggerated of a size. I think it would look pretty good.
Honestly, it doesn't even matter the question, or who is asking - I have nothing to hide here beyond that which is reasonable to expect for me to not discuss, and even when doing so - I can explain all of my actions and you will see that there is nothing but the most basic reasoning behind any of it. It's very easy to understand, and very low to the ground, there are absolutely no smoke or mirrors here.
Everyone understands businesses need to make a profit, but dont act like youre doing pplma favor by marking something up $2k just so you dont have to buy more than $20 worth of insurance. Paying the taxes/import duty on the jacket would still be a fuckton less than your ridiculous hypothetical markup. Gotta cover your ass in case what, the boogieman comes and eats all your jackets? Whats gonna happen that destroys an entire piece and makes all of the material completely unusable? A suicide bomber decides to waltz into your weird sweatshop and wear all your jackets as he blows himself up? Dont compare some ridiculous %200 markup for $2000 dollars, selling a jacket for $3000 which should be $1500 to a guy marking up his shitty belts by $60. Selling expensive shit doesnt have the same rules as cheap shit or we'd all be homeless. Imagine if you had to pay %200 percent markup over your houses appraised value just so some dipshit on the internet could swag harder. Lol what a joke.
WC steeze. I just googled this because of your post and this may be a SF first, but I want this toilet
I understand that, dude. I'm sure there are other users who feel the same way as me. I was biting my tongue until now. There are a handful of threads that I regularly post in, this being one of them. I understand at times, the topic deviates from "ToJ" as a brand, but for the most part it's enjoyable.
This argument is not. I just skipped over what the guy has to say. The way I see it...it's your thread with the focal point around your firm. Kinda reminds me of the other character with the MMM zip that was told by Fok to stay out of your thread. This kills the ambiance for me.
LOL. Can I get some weed bro?
seriously, anyone who responds to woodyear at this point is just doing everyone a disservice. he popped up a few weeks ago to attack the CM and now he's back to attack drew's business en masse. it's clear that he has a vendetta against drew, and you can't fight emotional attacks w/ rational responses
also, he's not going to stop b/c it's clear that he's too butt-hurt over some prior affair. so it's probably best if we all just agree to ignore him
the guy is a blubbering baby who isn't deserving of the time & effort we are throwing at him. he isn't capable of composing a non-impassioned rational argument, so he has to make appeals to intelligence like, "i attend a top philosophy program". lol, nobody ranks or gives a shit about 'top philosophy programs'
This. I'm considering making a peacot my first ToJ purchase and can't decide wether to go for navy, black or brown. I think Drew said brown was his favourite, and I'm leaning in that direction because I'll be wearing it almost exclusively with (dark) jeans. Any reason I should reconsider navy or black?
This whole argument is such a waste of time. I'll admit that I've only skimmed it, and I haven't necessarily understood the whole argument in full. Surely though, Drew can sell his jackets at whatever price that he wants to. If he feels that his costs/profit margin/quality-cost ratio/risk/whatever on producing a shearling jacket are not appropriate for his business, then so be it - he doesn't have to qualify his reasons with logic or reason - if he doesn't want to do it, then he doesn't have to.
Separate names with a comma.