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TOJ - updates on the debacle, complaints, news about other ventures, whatever.

Discussion in 'Streetwear and Denim' started by impolyt_one, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. ahrange

    ahrange Active Member

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    64 weeks today and no end in sight.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
  2. oldfashionedbc

    oldfashionedbc Active Member

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    Christmas 2015! :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  3. seabrass

    seabrass Well-Known Member

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    Are we actually keeping that spreadsheet updated?

    How come so many lamb ma-1s have gone out and I haven't heard shit about them or seen pics on here at all?
     
  4. Justo

    Justo Well-Known Member

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    not everyone posts nor has any obligation to
     
    4 people like this.
  5. ninopwns

    ninopwns Senior member

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    I'm kind of wanting another update from Drew just to see if this pace of production stays
     
  6. ghdvfddzgzdzg

    ghdvfddzgzdzg Senior member

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    Once people have their jackets I'm betting they don't really want to spend more time here in "waiting on jackets" land
     
    3 people like this.
  7. Rommel

    Rommel Senior member

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    BC, Canada
    Jackets seem to be going out slowly, #toj and #templeofjawnz on Instagram shows some recent deliveries.
     
  8. azif

    azif Senior member

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    australia
    To buy apc varsity on sale or wait for TOJ Aug13 order

    Are they still refunding?
     
  9. Distorbiant

    Distorbiant Senior member

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    Well within one month the bulk of the orders should be shipped out according to drew's last update.
     
  10. phobicz

    phobicz Member

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    He also said daypacks would be ready this month.
     
  11. drmmr

    drmmr Senior member

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    So what's up with the wallets? Weren't the wallets supposed to be a single batch order, meaning they get sent out once all are completed?

    I've yet to receive mine.
     
  12. Potsnu

    Potsnu Senior member

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    The APC varsity is garbage. I wouldn't even buy it at 50% off.

    Bedwin, Deluxe, etc. I've seen them all in person and the wool and leather is nowhere near as nice as TOJ
     
  13. bawlin

    bawlin Senior member

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    The APC varsity is far from garbage and is a solid pickup at 40-50% off.
     
  14. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    I handled the APC varsity this season and thought it was nice. Calling it garbage seems like a stretch.

    People often conflate "characteristic" with "quality" on this forum. So thin leathers are considered "bad" and thick leathers are considered "good," even though thin and thick are just characteristics (like blue and red). Seraphin -- leather garment maker for Hermes -- uses extremely, extremely thin cuts of leather (almost paper thin). They're one of the best makers in the world.

    Quality is typically subjective -- that is, dependent on what you're looking for. You can tell the quality difference between H&M and Hermes, but it's next to impossible for a consumer to tell the difference in quality between APC and Saint Laurent. Or whatever two brands people often bookmark here as the "basic" and "grail" versions of XYZ type of garment.
     
    6 people like this.
  15. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    Incidentally, on the topic of wool quality, this is a good read:

    http://sleevehead.blogspot.com/2013/09/menswear-let-me-introduce-you-to.html

    TL;DR summary: Determining the quality of wool requires some very expensive machinery and technical training. It's pretty much impossible for a consumer to tell the quality of wool by just feeling it with their hands.
     
    3 people like this.
  16. brad-t

    brad-t Senior member

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    It's easy to find thin leathers at any price point, but thick leathers — particularly thick lamb — at low price points seem pretty rare. That would probably explain why thicker leather is perceived as "higher quality." But by that measure, isn't pretty much any measure of quality dependent entirely on the ideals of the individual? Should we simply not talk about quality, then?

    When people call thin leather low quality, it's typically in conjunction with other aspects of the leather, which aren't always easy to quantify.
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    I think that's generally true, and should be recognized on this board more than it is. The idea of quality is typically dependent on the designer's intentions and the customer's preferences. It's not as simple to define as people think. (With some exceptions, like classic men's footwear).

    It's not that I don't think we should talk about quality, it's more about how obsessed we as men get with the idea of quality in clothing. As if we were buying cars or something. That obsession has all sorts of consequences -- it gives people a bad understanding of what real quality means; it writes off designers/ brands/ tailors who don't necessarily fall into someone's subjective preferences (what they mistake as quality); and it overshadows other aspects of fashion (design, trends, stories, or whatever).

    It also forces some brands to fit into those subjective design elements because they think consumers believe XYZ is an indication of quality (on suits and sport coats, this happened years ago when brands starting putting functional buttonholes into jacket sleeves, which is idiotic, but people thought it was an indication of quality. Or the Super 100s wool numbers. List can go on forever).

    I think we should talk about quality, but with less absolutism -- calling something garbage when our ability to discern quality is probably pretty limited. Or at least recognizing when something is just a characteristic. Saying that thick leathers are better than thin leathers is like saying something red is inherently better than something blue. Red garments are rarer than blue, but nobody would take that as a reasonable statement.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
    7 people like this.
  18. Brothersport

    Brothersport Senior member

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    that last statement is taking it too far the other way, tho. thick/thin doesn't = quality, but there is something of a correlation. brad's point is that you're not going to find any thick leathers at h&m or whatever, so it makes at least a little sense why people use thickness as a factor in assessing quality. there's no correlation with color.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
  19. Death24xASecond

    Death24xASecond Senior member

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    I was with your very interesting comments until this comparison. It doesn't work for me. Perhaps it's because leather products tend to be made for somewhat hardy usage: shoes, wallets, outerwear. Color is purely a question of superficiality (not in the pejorative sense, but literally: a matter of the surface). So it wouldn't matter much if something is red or blue beyond who it'd appeal to: one would not appeal to a fan of the other color, and vice versa. But I feel like leather is associated with thickness as a mark of quality in part because of what we make out of it.
     
  20. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    What gets bandied around here is not that the thickness of leather correlates with quality. It's that it defines quality. So people say: "X jacket is bad because it's thin leather; Y jacket is good because it's thick leather," without understanding that these are just characteristics. Again, there are hundreds of high-quality makers who use thin lambskins. Seraphin is an undisputed example because they make for Hermes, a company that's pretty much the gold standard within their niche. They'd never use anyone who didn't make anything but the best -- assuming you like the kind of things they make.

    But to take your kind interpretation of what people are saying, I recently bought a Margiela 5-zip, and someone said in another thread that they tried the same jacket on and thought it was poor quality because it was a thin leather.

    If you have 1000 jacket makers on the market and 50 of them use thick leathers -- and all 50 are on the "good" side of the quality spectrum -- then you might be able to say that thick leathers correlate with quality. But if you try on a thin leather jacket, it tells you nothing. Because the other 950 makers all use thin leathers, so getting a thin leather jacket in itself tells you nothing about what that means about the rest of the garment.

    That's the kind of reductive thinking that easily results when you start saying X correlates with good quality and not-X correlates with bad quality.

    In classic men's clothing, this is the story of how people started an arms race with Super 100s wools. Or in denim, it's how people started putting fake selvedge stripes into their jeans. Or in tailoring, how working buttonholes got into sleeves. Or in footwear, how cheap crap from Mexico started getting Goodyear welted. It's people reducing the idea of quality to one measure, instead of just taking a garment up as a whole and asking whether or not they like it.

    In Drew-ian terms, it's like caring if a dish has tomatoes rather than just asking if it tastes good. If it has tomatoes, it might taste good. If it doesn't, it can also taste good. But it's the tasting good part that's important; not the tomatoes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2014
    9 people like this.

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