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TOJ - updates on the debacle, complaints, news about other ventures, whatever.

Discussion in 'Streetwear and Denim' started by impolyt_one, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    A discussions broke out in the middle of a fistfight.
     
  2. brad-t

    brad-t Senior member

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    Fok, I understand that you're just trying to be pragmatic, but putting the onus of responsibility onto aggrieved customers whose only crime is being aggrieved strikes me as unfair. There's little anyone here can do to help, and Toj has had tons of good will as a business. It's circular logic to say that Drew won't post here because everyone's mad, because everyone's only mad due to Drew's lack of communication. Even if the lead time stayed the same, if Drew had communicated every few weeks in this thread the status of what's happening, I think you would see very little complaints being posted.
     
    19 people like this.
  3. Find Finn

    Find Finn Senior member

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    He hasn't ordered anything ever and just come here to cause trouble and troll, he was called out earlier and now he's back.

    People who actually have money "in the pot" or something sensible to say can speculate as much as they want.
     
  4. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    Again, I agree with everything you say. I just assume that everyone wants a refund or better yet, a jacket. And being more mad at Drew doesn't bring anyone closer to that. That's all. I'm saying that maybe we should focus on solving a (possibly) still tractable problem. If everyone demands a refund, then it's possible that the ToJ just declare bankruptcy, it's assets are auctioned off, and no one gets their jackets anyway, or for that matter, any of their money. The ideal solution is that Drew really get his heart back in it, be on top of things, get people their jackets quickly. But we are working with a far from ideal situation at this stage.
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. Understatesman

    Understatesman Senior member

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    Shit, man, I want a refund and I don't even have an order in. Reading through this exasperating thread the past week is really disheartening and frustrating.

    Drew, if you're out there, FUCKING SAY SOMETHING. It's pathetic to remain silent on this matter. If jackets are coming, then by all means, FUCKING SPEAK UP. If refunds are coming, FUCKING UPDATE YOUR CUSTOMERS. If your hands are tied at the moment, FUCKING SAY SO.

    Unbelievable.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
    3 people like this.
  6. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    Look, I dunno why everyone is talking about fairness and getting angry, maybe it is because LAGuy and I are older (and maybe not,) but what he's telling you is that sometimes you have the choice between expressing your anger or getting what you want and that, it might be worth it to act to get what you want, unless you anger is worth $830.
     
    3 people like this.
  7. Foxhound

    Foxhound Senior member

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    Alright Fok, what do I/we need to do? I want my jacket's, daypack and wallet. There's a reason I ordered them. Yes I knew there was going to be a way, albeit, didn't think it would be this long.
     
  8. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior member

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    For all of this talk about "outrage hasn't achieved anything", I actually think that it has.

    It *could* just be a coincidence, but I think that, despite the failure of Drew to appear in this thread as promised, the recent photos on Instagram of products being shipped are as a result of the outrage in this thread.

    Absent the furore in this thread over the past few days, I suspect that those boxes would still be sitting in Drew's house, waiting for something to be done with them.

    Also, for what it's worth, I agree with @dieworkwear about ToJ's customer base. Sure, they may have wanted to change details and so on, but that's hardly unique for MTO customers. People haven't been overly nitpicky or difficult to deal with - it's just because wait times blew out *and* Drew failed to communicate or to explain why things were happening.

    Really, as I've said before in this thread, *all* that Drew needed to do was communicate. That's it. I think that people would have even been fine with waiting as long as they knew that something was happening, albeit slowly, and as long as the lines of communication were still open.

    It's the lack of communication that really kills businesses that operate over the internet. People can't go into a shop and talk to the owner, so customers rely upon e-mail, social media and postings on internet fora like this one to know how things are going. When that communication dries up, people understandably become nervous.

    If we look at other cases of businesses using SF that encountered difficulties and then failed, with Steven Aver being a good example and Passaggio Cravatte being another (although PC is still going outside SF), it was the lack of communication that really stuffed them. Steven simply stopped communicating when his supply line had problems and there were delays and that, understandably, caused a lot of people to become very, very worried and the business subsequently imploded. PC was different, as Gianni kept on posting, but he posted about things other than the issue at hand ("Very dandy trousers!") and kept on ignoring the real issues. Due to his failure to comprehensively address people's concerns, things blew up in his face.

    Time and again, we've seen that as long as sellers keep lines of communication open and as long as they are up-front and give good, clear explanations (instead of vague, off-topic, meandering comments), then people typically maintain the faith. Close down communication, though, and people start to get very worried, they start to demand explanations and, in the absence of any explanations from the business in question, people will start to speculate and to get angry.
     
  9. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior member

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    Precisely.

    Thanks, @brad-t - you said in two lines what I took a few paragraphs to say!
     
  10. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    My immediate suggestion is to reach out to the person who has dealt with customers for a long time, seems invested in the venture, still, and see if it is feasible for him, (or a reliable proxy, I suppose) to help sort out the mess over in South Korea. Worth at least a try, right?
     
  11. jim_n

    jim_n Senior member

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    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
  12. Foxhound

    Foxhound Senior member

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    I take it by "person" you mean Charly? I'm going to be honest when I say I'm not the best person to do this. I'm a 20 year old Uni Student/IT Technician. We need someone with experince to be a mediator. An update for Drew will certainly help the situation(assuming it answers all questions), and I believe if we are to ever get one soon, it will be Monday evening Korean time, when Libertine isn't open.


    On another note, I'm not one for trying to cause conflict, but honestly, if you do not have an order, and you're not posting meaningfully(LA Guy, Journeyman, brad-t), then it's time to get out of this thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
  13. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    Just a note about mediation. It can only hope to work if both sides agree to abide by his decisions before the process starts.
     
  14. Distorbiant

    Distorbiant Senior member

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    To be clear, are you saying that getting angry will cause Drew to not get our jackets to us?

    Right after people began speaking up, Drew immediately began to ship out jackets, and then promised an update as well.

    Coincidence? Perhaps, but if it is, it's a timely one...
     
  15. bakasam

    bakasam Member

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    That instagram update was the "update" gaiz [​IMG]
     
    3 people like this.
  16. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    Think of it as kicking a rock. Every time you kick the rock, it moves a little. Then it stops. You are saying "look, it moved." But you are forgetting, or ignoring, that every time this has happened, it has stopped.

    But don't listen to me. The fact that this forum has been around for 12 years, and that we've worked with over 120 vendors, and had only a handful of real failures over that entire period, should count for nothing.
     
    3 people like this.
  17. Distorbiant

    Distorbiant Senior member

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    I agree, and it's also true that persistent small acts of can accumulate into great results. In the end, what matters is that the rock moves at all.
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Dbear

    Dbear Senior member

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    Damn, 80 new posts in a few hours and nothing.

    As for the costs, IMO, Fumma's estimate of $200 is a bit low for his cost of goods.

    He has mentioned a few times that a square of NZ lamb costs $4 and each jacket is about 50 squares and that his margin is 50%.

    This is around when the base jacket was around $650. So, if the raw leather for the jacket was like $200 + $15 for the zippers and +$5 for everything else (lining, etc) + $70(?) to pay the sewer per jacket + $35 for EMS that comes to ~$325 and he takes home the other ~$325 and who knows what he paid Charly or Dan.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
  19. Raindrop

    Raindrop Senior member

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    Regardless, ~$700 for his jackets is a steal.

    It's hard to find fashion jackets of equal quality and fit at that price point.
     
  20. noob in 89

    noob in 89 Senior member

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    Especially if you ordered them from ToJ.
     
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