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TOJ - updates on the debacle, complaints, news about other ventures, whatever.

Discussion in 'Streetwear and Denim' started by impolyt_one, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. Arethusa

    Arethusa Senior member

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    I got a few pms about listing all of my leathers for sale and one request that I post about it, so here goes.

    I ordered three jackets (lamb moto, blacked out lamb mdr, calf 2010dr) last year at the cutoff. Now, this was kind of stupid since it was my first toj leather order, and getting sizing right on one jacket is usually fraught enough, but at the time it seemed like toj might disappear, so I gambled. Unfortunately, the cutoff meant lead time jumped to six months in my case, so I didn't see those jackets until December.

    A lot of sizing advice gets thrown around in this thread, and a ton of it is shitty and unhelpful. On one hand, people are super fucking picky about fit—often to the point of demanding skintight jackets—and on the other, whenever someone tries to ask a question, the standard response is SHUT UP TRUST CHARLY. I do think Charly knows what he's doing with sizing, but it's not always clear that he knows what you want, and he's definitely on the receiving end of tons of bullshit. In my case, I wanted something that basically fit like a 40US, but I'd lost weight due to getting sick, so my measurements were closer to a 38, and he recommended roughly a 48 (TOJ sizing and EU sizing do line up; I'll explain). And this is how I ended up with a calf 2010DR that was pretty uncomfortable, and I had no idea why.

    In retrospect, my impression is Charly sizes for jackets for being worn with tshirts (probably unless you're very specific otherwise)—and I kind of can't blame him, considering how noisy this thread can be about this. It also matters a lot less with lamb, which is far stretchier and much more forgiving, and if you layer a little too much, it's not that big of a deal. This is not the case with calf—so much so that my lamb jackets had wider shoulder measurements from the calf jacket, despite all being ordered with the same measurements and at the same time (and I never wore any of them).

    I think Drew really got it right with his 1.05/1.08/1.1 measurement multiplier thing—ie if you have a 38" chest, multiply by one of those numbers to get your size—where 1.05 is tight, 108 is slim, and 1.1 is relaxed/fitted/whatever. I'd add that 1.05 is basically a tshirt, 1.08 is a sweater, and 1.1 is a chunky sweater. But as far as I can tell, it's mostly gone unnoticed in this thread that if you're (say) a 40US, this is normally supposed to correspond to a 50EU (standard rule is roughly US = EU - 10). 40 x 1.1 = 44", which is around where the TOJ size 50 is on the pattern charts (which Drew says are out of date, but which show up on the JC website and are fairly close to what you get if you ask Charly for what the starting point of a particular size)—meaning that Drew seems to actually start from a more relaxed fit when patterning, and if you're a 40US and ordering a 48 in TOJ sizing (corresponding to x1.05), you're basically sizing down a whole size. You can do this if you're getting lamb, and considering how light they are, it kind of makes sense to size them for tshirts. I do not recommend doing this with calf.

    Anyway, I haven't seen anyone provide any serious sizing advice in a long time, so I figured I'd weigh in. It was an expensive lesson to learn, but someone had to do it. Also, all of this applies only to the leathers. No idea if this is true of the wool jackets or not.
     
    6 people like this.
  2. brad-t

    brad-t Senior member

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    I don't get what happened here. Were you unaware you lost weight?

    ... well, yeah? a 40 US is a 50 EU, and one size down from that is 48 ...

    I dunno, you wrote a lot but I don't understand what your actual advice or lesson was.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
    4 people like this.
  3. Arethusa

    Arethusa Senior member

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    Nah, lost weight, was trying to gain it back. Pneumonia fucked me up for quite a while.

    tl;dr: standard sizing advice on here is basically to size really tight (or basically to size down a whole size from your true size). You can do this with lamb, and you'll just get a skintight jacket that'll usually look good with a tshirt, but that shit does not work for calf. I've never seen anyone on here say TOJ sizing follows the same rules as EU/US sizing, but it does; it's just actually relaxed enough to wear a thick sweater.

    When I went back digging through the thread, lmost every time I've seen Drew post about this, he's pushed for more relaxed fits/measurements, but it doesn't seem to make much of an impression.

    Come to think of it, I think you made a similar point a few pages back when someone complained about some DR fit in a side shot looking too big when that was just how DRs hang sometimes.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  4. Leather

    Leather Senior member

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    When have people suggested to size down a whole size for toj jackets?
     
  5. kindofyoung

    kindofyoung Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    I've followed this thread for maybe a year or so, have always gotten the impression you should order pretty much your normal size
    (except varsity jackets, size up for them)


    I seriously can't remember once
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  6. artishard116

    artishard116 Senior member

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    The sizing advice has always been the same:

    Send measurements to Charly.
     
    1 person likes this.
  7. brad-t

    brad-t Senior member

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    Yeah, this is basically my confusion. You seem to be refuting advice that is not really given.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. ipractice

    ipractice Senior member

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    I think you're confused because TOJ cuts in general are very slim, which may seem like a true US40/EU50 fits much slimmer than it's suppose to be. But you're mistaking that as a sizing issue versus design, which is why we're all confused by your confusion (if that makes sense). I thought everyone knew the leathers fit slim if you go tts. Drews multipliers should apply to your standard size.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
  9. willy cheesesteak

    willy cheesesteak Senior member

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    TL;DR

    Email Charly and let him do his job and stop confusing newbies who are reading this thread.
     
    9 people like this.
  10. Distorbiant

    Distorbiant Senior member

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    Quote: This is really the core of the problem.

    It's a shame we can't have a discussion on this without the TOJ regulars becoming dismissive. Might as well call Willy Uncle at this point.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
    2 people like this.
  11. AKang

    AKang Senior member

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    1-800-ASK-CHARLY
     
  12. cyc wid it

    cyc wid it Senior member

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    The discussion becomes a disservice when the information provided is wrong and could easily be construed as correct by new readers.
     
  13. AriGold

    AriGold Senior member

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    "Don't forget to size down on your TOJ/JC" said Noone ever.


    Anyways Urethrasa, too much confusion! you shouldn't have sized for your sick body, and sized for your normal body instead. Bad luck on that one but next time you'll get a perfect fit! Good luck.
     
  14. cl smooth

    cl smooth Senior member

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    Is this really the standard? Charly recommended a TTS size for the Toj0. Hope it's not gonna be skin tight if you are correct.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013
    1 person likes this.
  15. Distorbiant

    Distorbiant Senior member

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    All I know is that someone spent $2400 on leather jackets and is dissatisfied. He should at least be heard out instead of just squelched. Obviously something went wrong there, whether it was on his end, TOJ's end, or both, it's important information for people to know.
     
  16. kindofyoung

    kindofyoung Senior member

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    nah should have added a "sometimes" in the sentence, think it is/was primarly with toj1s
     
  17. Dbear

    Dbear Senior member

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    FAIK, the jackets with the raglan sleeves (TOJ1 and Baseball) often fit better 1 size up. This isn't true for all the other types of jackets with set in sleeves. This is just a rule of thumb tho, YMMV.
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Arethusa

    Arethusa Senior member

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    This is actually kind of amazing to me. I can recount a story in which Charly gave me wrong sizing advice—for admittedly somewhat complicated reasons; but, you know, I covered that shit—and your response is to tell me to email Charly.

    This shit, right here, is why this thread is so fucking unhelpful to newbies.
     
  19. brad-t

    brad-t Senior member

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    I think his post makes it clear what went wrong – he got exactly what he asked for, but it wasn't what he wanted. He submitted size 38 measurements because at the time he was a size 38, and he got a size 38 jacket.
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Arethusa

    Arethusa Senior member

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    Nope, specifically told Charly I wanted a 40US, from which he recommended a 48.

    The entire point of me posting this was to explain why this was not necessarily bad advice for lamb (though I wouldn't want it; I think a half size down in lamb is better), but it absolutely doesn't work for calf.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2013

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