TOJ - updates on the debacle, complaints, news about other ventures, whatever.

Discussion in 'Streetwear and Denim' started by impolyt_one, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. grizzlybear

    grizzlybear Senior member

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    Drew, million dollar question.

    will you be making the baseball jacket again? Only acceptable answer is yes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2012
  2. impolyt_one

    impolyt_one Senior member

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    No, this is exactly what I wanted to say, good job.

    To coincide with this post I wanted to put up this Venn-ish diagram that basically mapped the various Japanese men's magazines in order to describe attributes, I had seen this in use at the graduation presentations I went to at Vantan the other day as a slide given by the instructors in order for students to plot their brand identities, but I'm not finding the slide right now. Anyway, it's a very practical map and there's so much to be said of Styleforum, of Superfuture, of Stylezeitgeist, of TOJ, of Uncontrol, of any other individual poster with a stronger visual identity, a fashion 'brand' as it were. I'll try to bring that up later and then update it to represent the aforementioned identities. The gist is that the plot map where Uncontrol belongs is not within the SZ realm, and you can put it on paper. There probably IS a crossover between Uncontrol and TOJ, though it would truly be a sliver. Styleforum itself, it can consume almost the entire map - but distinctly avoids this grey area in the middle that represents Shibuya Gal-o/Onii-kei, which is where the majority of Uncontrol's visual identity is formed. So, in that sense, Styleforum and Uncontrol also exist in two different realms and the overlap there is minimal, possibly meeting for the tiniest bit of overlap, but not significantly. In turn, off the graph, you can see this in the day-in, day-out posting we all do on here, including Uncontrol's - there's these disparate visual identities and they're not going to come together anytime soon. Anyhow, asked to get that slide so I'll put the diagram up in a sec.
     
  3. impolyt_one

    impolyt_one Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    Key:
    Red: TOJ
    Green: Superfuture
    Yellow: Styleforum
    Purple: Uncontrol

    In the end I didn't bother to lasso Styelzeitgeist, as it's a 90/10 or 80/10/10 deal where they would want to consider themselves strictly Mode, but have tendencies towards street 'money/clothes' concept and there's the Hollywood celeb factor that they say they ignore, but is not ignorable, and frankly that idea centers more in the top right box.

    Anyway, so to give you an idea of what this graph represents, it's all Japanese fashion magazines. As most may know, Japanese fashion magazines are very specific and centered around common aesthetics, age and socioeconomic statuses, etc. This idea of partitioning and cordoning is actually very effective and logical, and manifests itself pretty reliably, even outside of Japan like America where style is mostly confused and not identifiable. It's to the point where we can consider these boxes to be 'zoku' (families/tribes) and you can be part of a certain magazine's 'zoku' - like Free and Easy-zoku, etc.
    Counter-clockwise from top left:

    The box that includes Lightning, Free and Easy is 'Ame-oya-kei' = American oyaji look = Americana for old guys. Denim, heritage, repro. Superdenim.

    below that in blue-grey with Samurai, Cool Trans, Street Jack = 'Street-kei' = streetwear. From Dunks to Kiks Tyo, used to include Visvim but it migrated a bit.

    green box = 'Kireii-kei' = pretty boy stuff. Not necessarily gay, but not masculine, more cute. This is probably more suited to very young guys, high school age. Not really relevant to most discussion within the English-language fashion internet world.

    purple center box = 'Onii-kei' = 'Big brother style' - Shibuya gal-o kei (the male counterpart to the Shibuya gyaru) - a sub-demographic of the Shibuya-kei (popular from about 1993 to 1996) style that many my identify with the tanned 'kogal' look - this is the male counterpart to them, and big brother in a fantasy sense that the guys are older than the girls (who were thought to be young) - this is 109 and Men's 109, the hairstyles and the clothes - within this realm also exists the Host (bar) look, male prostitution or pimping/scouting type subcultures that have been around the gyaru/gyaru-oh forever, the whole onii-kei look is generally marginalized as 'cheap' because well, the clothes are cheap (in relation to other 'serious' fashion lifestyles), and the lifestyle has some connotations of the sex industry, driven by the idea of turning to the sex industry rather than taking up a normal job, alternative lifestyles from 1990's Japan, yada yada. This is mostly in the past and not a relevant aesthetic in Japan, and not what it is in Shibuya nowadays like it used to be 15-20 years ago.

    Pink box - Salon-kei = Hair salon stylist magazines. Not really relevant to the English language internet again, because nobody really cares about hair! haha. Anyway, these are fashion magazines, and not exclusively about hair, but they are focused around the idea that Ura-Harajuku/Aoyama/Omotesando hair stylists are creative/stylish types and therefore the focus of these magazines is to show off their own culture, the guys with cool hair and clothes and stylist's waist bags, etc. Naturally, not everybody in Japan lives near Harajuku and so it's a moveable piece of Japanese youth culture for the rest.

    Grey box- 'Men's Non-kei' = Men's Non-no, ie young, mid-priced fashion. Occasionally featuring fast fashion, some elements of Mode, but stylized in a Japanese young menswear style. Obviously a huge category worthy of it's own box, and by far and large, the most important for this particular age group.

    Taupe box - 'Mode-kei' - this is mode, high fashion. Enough said.

    The dusty rose colored box, top right - 'Ita-oya-kei' = Italian oyaji kei = Italian old guy style. Men's Ex. Menswear. Styleforum's MC.

    The N/W/S/E compass points on the edges of this matrix are qualities:
    North = unchiku - knowledge - for the data/trivia obsessed
    West = for the hobby of 'clothes' - i.e. to define 'Fashion, vs Style'
    South = for aesthetic and stylistic interests - i.e. define 'Style, vs Fashion'
    East = for 'Lifestyle'

    Naturally, the intermediary areas are a mix, so Men's Ex - styleforum MC - naturally, it lies between the area between 'clothes' and 'trivia'

    So interesting points to focus on here, just from the descriptions -
    -you notice that Superfuture and Styleforum encompass many of these aesthetics, but at the same time, superfuture has 'superdenim' that is strictly Ameoya-kei, and styleforum has it's own counterpart in 'Itaoya-kei' with the MC forum. Both are strong, and completely different.
    - 'Onii-kei' - which many fromthe outside might view as 'dress up' or costume-y, or based on fantasy and imagination - that box skews towards the unlikely direction (though not colliding) where Amekaji and Streetwear are floating, because you have to realize that Amekaji and Streetwear in Japan are also dress-up and costume-y in a similar sense. They are niche looks, subcultures ranging from hobbyists (Americana) to almost full-on lifestyle prescriptions (Onii-kei) - and naturally, you can see where Streetwear falls between that, as Streetwear tends to prescribe a certain set of interests on it's own (perhaps skating and certain kinds of music), but is more livable within normal society than the Shibuya-kei lifestyles.

    I've added and boxed in where I think Styleforum, Superfuture, TOJ, and Uncontrol exist on the matrix. The groupings of magazines and 'kei's are fairly accurate, whereas the size of the boxes are not intended to represent anything... and therefore the representation of overlap is not intended to show anything proportional, just the fact, mainly.
    Superfuture and Styleforum, as non-Japanese sites operated in the English language, they avoid Onii-kei, and I've shown that in the matrix as well by cookie-cutting them out of the main lasso'd areas.

    Anyway, tons of info on this graph, have a look at it and see where you are.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2012
  4. impolyt_one

    impolyt_one Senior member

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    many thanks to djrajio for letting me borrow the graph itself, his upcoming brand 'Sawhney' I will fill into the matrix once we start discussing the matrix and get better at understanding it.
     
  5. gettoasty

    gettoasty Senior member

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    collab?
     
  6. impolyt_one

    impolyt_one Senior member

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    ^ yeah maybe, but no details to talk about now

    As for me and the matrix, I am obviously in the same direction as TOJ, but me, Drew Keith as the person and not TOJ, I would plot out up the right side with interests in Mode, all the way up to Men's Ex, with a little hockey stick area going towards Amekaji - I seek out that North and West area of Fashion and knowledge. What I wish for, is to have, or to get in touch with the styling/lifestyle facets that are opposite to those.
     
  7. impolyt_one

    impolyt_one Senior member

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    oh yeah, another note - the magazine names that are included in the circlings (like the way I've got '2nd' and not Free and Easy or Lightning) is not as important as the color or 'kei' that it's reaching in the graph. The magazines circled for styleforum/superfuture/TOJ/Uncontrol are not supposed to be prescriptions, and likewise the ones not circled are not supposed to be avoided, that's just the stock layout of the graph and the magazines are interchangeable within the 'kei' boxes.
     
  8. impolyt_one

    impolyt_one Senior member

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    where is modalsaliency when I need him? :D Anybody else absorb the graph well enough to get my point?
     
  9. Kajak

    Kajak Senior member

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    Cool infographic
     
  10. gettoasty

    gettoasty Senior member

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    NE i.e. Men's EX would be trivia and lifestyle right or am I reading it wrong?
    Am I reading it too literally?

    Personally I feel like I am more SE, which is in tune to what I eventually am or heading towards:
    But then also NE because the MC + Knowledge is also driving me

    but reading how you describe yourself, i can't help but think that everyone is the same?
    they are 'A' currently in their zone but seeking 'B'

    Eventually people from B side will want to head towards A and vice versa
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2012
  11. impolyt_one

    impolyt_one Senior member

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    Yes, to the first part - NE equals a mix of knowledge/clothes trivia along with 'clothes/fashion baller-ism'

    No, to the second part - I was describing myself in terms of creation, what my mind is outputting. The parts TOJ is lacking (lifestyle, styling) is because I haven't really gotten that far yet, and then I also don't consider myself to have that kind of mind. I am more about engineering and workmanship before styling, which is rarer among people who make/direct clothing brands.
     
  12. impolyt_one

    impolyt_one Senior member

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    You will notice, and since Styleforum, Superfuture, TOJ, and Uncontrol - we are from the west, and not Japanese - I have basically avoided most 'lifestyle' and 'stylistic/coordination' aspects and moved it all to the top right direction. That is because superfuture's SWD aspects get closest to the idea of 'lifestyle' as in clothes representing part of the fashion/music/art/hobbies package that 'lifestyle' would encapsulate, but still, in the scheme of things, they are weaker than the dedication the Japanese apply to this pursuit.
     
  13. impolyt_one

    impolyt_one Senior member

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    Now, onto the Uncontrol thing, Uncontrol on the graph (this is not a callout) and then Uncontrol vs SZ, Uncontrol vs Styleforum, etc - The point that I was making yesterday was simply that forcing the UCDR down SZ's throat is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole there, and it's no more off-base than trying to post it in MC, or on Superfuture's superdenim WAYWT - these are all different aesthetics with looks/brands that are included, and looks/brands that are not included. Uncontrol may like clothes, just as many of us do, and there's no wrong/right or better/worse in this case, but purposely putting yourself out there in a place where you don't fit in - that's only guaranteeing yourself a negative reaction, and basically, it is a form of trolling in the world of the English-language internet fashion world. These places are all full of sensitive people who are protective of themselves, protective of the groupthink, and by trying to marriage two disparate aesthetics like that, it's only putting yourself on the hook as bait for the attacks.
     
  14. impolyt_one

    impolyt_one Senior member

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    ok, updated to include SZ, SZ would be the blue area. I don't want to say that encompasses all of it, because the chart doesn't have an area for appreciation 'craftsmanship/artisanship' beyond the more generic 'trivia/knowledge' factor that ties with Amekaji repro as well as Menswear/MC type stuff. One could maybe put a second small cloud of SZ blue up there, but that doesn't represent the whole idea well IMO.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. IronKnochs

    IronKnochs Senior member

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    This is going to end up being a clusterfuck of coloured lines.

    Anyone wanna produce a simplified version? No more difficult than those jacket edits we were doing a few pages back.
     

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