Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Ennius, Sep 18, 2013.
That's fair. They are both on the record as thinking the other is a splendid dresser.
In an odd jacket context, I probably wouldn't. Black with a navy suit and a light blue (solid) shirt, definitely. Even with a large tie collection, it is something I'd wear. I don't know if I'd do charcoal, blue and black tie. I'd probably do light gray, blue, and black tie though.
given that you'd chose to have a specific tie to wear to weddings (as I would), and a navy tie (which you consider to be nearly interchangeable with a black tie though admittedly better) that only leaves three. since the navy is superior to the black as you say, then why make it one more of three? i don't have much occasion for dinner after work were you find the black tie to be so useful ( i have a four year old at home) so maybe that is part of what I am missing.
for the record again, for me:
a mid blue OR a hunter green
black/white shep check
my sixth would be a navy pindot.
i do own a black tie. i only use it for funerals.
Thank you for the snark, but I have been to funerals and weddings lately and do not disagree that the rules are not enforced to the same degree that they used to. This argument has been made repeatedly and is fine for showing what one can get away with but not really that helpful for one who actually wants to be appropriately dressed for certain occasions. Even the main guy in this thread who does not think black ties belong on a top 5 list admits he wears a black tie to a funeral. The rules are not enforced to the same extent because many men do not care about being appropriately dressed; I would assume most on SF do care about this and I tailor my advice and comments accordingly.
What is and what is not appropriate changes with social mores. I would give the OP advice on what will provide the most versatile wardrobe in the real world of today, not an imagined world where everybody plays by the rules of a very narrow segment of society from 50 years ago.
It's not a matter of getting away with things, which implies it's a matter of enforcement. It isn't- the rules themselves have changed. When people come looking for practical advice, I tailor my advice to what's appropriate today. Because they don't need arcane and misremembered rules from a golden age that no longer exists, they need guidance on navigating the world they live in now.
Just a suggestion, but perhaps we should stick to giving the advice we all want to give rather than lecturing each other on the nature of the advice that should be given!
For my father's generation, there was really no argument about this - the basic tie was your school (or school leaver's), or regimental, society or club tie (usually a repp stripe, sometimes with an emblem pattern in addition or instead) because ties were about sending a message to do with belonging - we've moved away form this, these days, at least for most of us.
FWIW, there has never been a single occasion, apart from my grandfather's funeral ten years ago, when I felt I needed a black tie of any kind. That isn't to say that a black tie could not have been a fall-back choice on any number of occasions, but even if optimality and versatility are different - and I agree that they are - versatility is overrated unless you are severely restricted in your clothing choices. So, if I had to have only one tie, it might be a black grenadine, but even with 5 ties, that would be enough for me to not have one of them black. And even with just one tie, probably only I had one suit and it was grey. For most purposes, a navy or mid-blue, whether plain or pindot or stripe, would be more suitable on more occasions. A burgundy or brown might be better still depending on the person's skin tone and the shirts they had available.
And, if you're talking true versatility (i.e. a tie that can be worn with all kinds of outfits), actually wool or silk knits might be far more versatile than any of the more fancy types. You can get away with wearing a simple knit with a plain blue or grey suit, or with an odd jacket, or even in those OCBD-with-jeans outfits that SF on both sides hates so much, but actually works quite well in many situations in the real world. And actually, given a choice between my burgundy grenadine and my burgundy wool knit, in most situations, I prefer the texture and slightly more rugged feel of the knit.
A versatile 5-tie line-up for me would be something like this:
Navy blue pindot (or some other very small pattern, like Marinella's forget-me-nots etc.)
Burgundy wool knit
A black/white/grey pattern (shepherd's check or herringbone)
A repp stripe (you chose - everyone's different - I would suggest sober colours, but this would include the traditional number one choice I started with...)
For 10, I would add to this with:
An ancient madder paisley (everyone needs one of these)
A modern-style bow-tie (by this, I mean not a huge, floppy red-dotted silk number, but something square-ended in a muted colour)
Another knit, in a colour that suits you and your wardrobe
Another grenadine (colour to suit)
A shantung repp stripe or pattern (again in colours of your chosing) - there's not been enough consideration for texture so far.
For those who are likely to attend black-tie (and even white-tie) events, than a black (and white) bow-tie is, of course, is a basic essential. I doubt those kinds of people will be reading this forum looking for advice, however...
I think it is more educational to make 2 lists, 5 ties that I wear most often vs 5 ties which I can use for pretty much every conceivable occasion.
5 ties that I wear most often
Brown with small patterns (blue/white/ yellow)
Green with small patterns (brown/blue)
Blue shantung with white dots
Green shantung with white stripes
Blue and yellow broad striped knit
Limit of 5 ties which I can use for pretty much every conceivable occasion
Black grosgrain bow tie
Note the difference.
I see the point you're making, but you're veering away from the spirit of this thread. There will be considerable variability from one "5 ties that I wear the most" list to the next, and although interesting to compare, I don't really see the usefulness of such lists; they are heavily influenced by many variables, with the main one perhaps being personal taste.
That said, I like your list, poorsod. In particular, I would like to add a blue shantung with white dots to my collection. May I ask where yours is from?
Both Shantungs are from Drakes.
Thanks. Unfortunately the dimensions of Drakes shantungs don't work for me.
Nothing you have said in this thread proves that any rules have changed. It is simply your assertion and it is offered without any supporting evidence. If the rules have changed, I doubt they have changed to the point that wearing a black tie to a funeral would be problematic (perhaps you think otherwise, but I assume you do not). If they have not changed, then a black tie is without question the right thing to wear. If you are not sure whether the rules have changed but are at least sure that they have not changed to the point where a black tie would be sub-optimal, you wear the black tie. This is really not hard to get. Plus, I'm sorry, but when you are at a solemn event like a funeral, it's not about you and you can swallow your pride and bow to tradition where appropriate. I don't actually think you are anywhere near that callous, but observing tradition is not going to kill anyone and a funeral definitely is not the place to declare your opinion on whether the rules have changed. This entire line of discussion assumes that we're even giving you the benefit of the doubt about rules having changed when you haven't proven a darn thing beyond your own assertions. Take away that, and your argument falls to pieces.
But please continue to play the part of the rebellious hero liberating us all from an "imagined world where everybody plays by the rules of a very narrow segment of society from 50 years ago" or the "arcane and misremembered rules from a golden age that no longer exists."
Can we all just agree that we should have at least 10 ties? Should solve the entire issue being debated.
If you wear a tie every weekday, I'd say eight is the minimum.
^ That sounds about right, but it's SF, so we should round up...
Separate names with a comma.