Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Ennius, Sep 18, 2013.
Thanks for the info flyswatter
You had better go out and buy a black tie right now before the cognoscenti scoop them all up.
Black and navy are sufficiently distinct that there should not be any issue having both of them in one's first 5 ties (definitely way less problematic than both burgundy and brown).
For a top 5 list that you'd recommend to others, you want to have everything you need to be appropriately dressed for any situation that calls for jacket and tie. If you do not have a black tie for funerals at the very least, your list does not meet this criteria. Even if you think it may not be as optimal in certain settings, a black tie can look pretty good in a number of settings beyond funerals as well. I think we can all agree that it is obvious that navy should be on a top 5 list and burgundy provides one with a conservative colored tie that works with light blue or pink shirts and helps one avoid a blue on blue on blue look which can be difficult to pull off. Burgundy also IMO looks better than black or navy with most odd jackets other than a navy blazer. With those three ties, you have something that can work with pretty much any shirt or suit you'd own.
Once you meet this criteria, the goal should be to round out one's collection with a bit of variety. A silver / grey tie works well in lieu of an actual wedding tie and provides some added variety. I went navy pin dot for my 5th tie but could just as easily have substituted something in a light blue. If one doesn't wear a lot of white shirts, I actually kind of like a darkish green. Light blue and darkish green are 6-7 on my top 10 list anyways, so it's not a dramatic difference to swap one of them out for the 5th tie on my list.
I like your list in general (love navy pindots, and mentioned it up thread as a go-to tie when a bit more formality is needed), and I equate needing a black tie in the top five (if only for funerals) with needing a black tie rig if one is to only own three suits, because there are certain situations where it is the only thing that is appropriate to wear.
This point has been made and ignored several times, because people are trying to have different conversations, with a sprinkling of redefining words along the way. If I could only have five ties, in the mostly wearing a suit context of the OP, I'd go with solids in black, navy, burgundy, silver, and . . . actually I don't know what I'd pick last. Maybe a navy polka dot, or a dark green solid. My point would be to maximize the number of outfits I could wear. But even in a situation where I almost exclusively wear odd jackets (my reality), I'd still go with the same lineup, only I'd make the black a knit, and I'd might replace the navy polka dot with a solid brown. Or to hell with it: I'd even pick them all to be knits. I have fewer ties than many here, but still enough to wear each at most once per month, and I wear my black knit probably once per week, and, yes, with brown shoes. If I can't decide what tie looks right I go first to a navy solid and next to the black knit, so it seems pretty versatile to me.
I would wear a black grenadine to a job interview, depending somewhat on the job of course.
Black ties are also great for evening wear when the dress code is not officially black tie. Maybe an event doesn't call for a dinner jacket/tux, few do anymore - a good way to still have some of the evening formality is a black tie, along with a white shirt and a dark navy suit. I think this is a great look for non-dinner jacket evening events.
well, we all have our own opinions. I think that wearing a black tie (knit or otherwise) with brown shoes would make one look like they got dressed in a dark room and mistook their black tie for their blue tie.
so for some jobs, but not all. a job in your profession?
also, i asked specifically if you'd wear one to a wedding.
I'm not sure your questions here are entirely relevant to the conversation. I believe you are once again trying to discredit the versatility of a black tie by pointing out a couple of examples where it may not be the optimal choice. But it would be absurd (nigh impossible) to require every tie on a "top 5" list to be the best option for any situation requiring a tie. If this is your argument, gringo, then you need to pick new top 5s, because none of yours work with a tuxedo...
Have you actually been to a funeral lately? Any somber and conservative tie will do, you don't need black. Like it or not, we don't live in a society where the rules are anywhere near that strict any more. In the real world, a dark conservative suit and a dark conservative tie will put make you the most formally dressed person there, or very very close to it. Certainly, a plain navy tie and a charcoal suit will be entirely appropriate, especially for somebody at a place in life where they only own 5 ties and probably one suit.
I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that mr. balfour is quoted in this thread as only using his black grenadine for funerals. so it appears we disagree to....agree.
mr. mafoofan does not own a solid black tie (but to be fair manton lists it as a must).
If this thread has really devolved to being a "he said, she said" of Dubiously Honored SF members, I'll take Manton's opinion over 's any day of the week.
I do not require it to be the best option. i just fail to see where, apart from a somber event it even deserves consideration. further, as i stated up thread, my top five would include a sheppards check that i could use both for business, and celebratory events. a black tie would look out of place at a wedding, no? i also doubt it's a top choice for an evening social event, particularly if one owns both a navy tie and a sheppards check. it certainly doesn't work for a day time social event. would a dark navy look as out of place at a funeral as a black tie would at a festive event?
I wouldn't wear a black tie to a wedding. And I wouldn't wear a navy tie to a wedding. I'd wear a wedding tie to a wedding. Because it's a wedding. But again, this isn't about black vs navy. It was just a good opportunity for snark.
I obviously agree with the chorus on this. Balfour made the point particularly well when he pointed out that versatility is different from optimality. But versatility also has nothing to do with need. If there were an iron clad rule that you needed a black tie for funerals or you'd be shot, that wouldn't make black as a tie any more versatile. So just to be clear, the near need for a black tie is separate from black's versatility.
As has already been said here, the "you could replace X with X" isn't relevant because this can be said for most ties (and navy is absolutely my first choice if I only had one tie). This would be fungibility. As far as being replaced, aesthetically, I'd say both a navy and a black tie are about equal. There are very few, if any, outfits that you could not replace one of those ties with another tie (even if limited to three more as per the five tie rule, but especially so when you get into triple digits as far as a tie stable). The outfit may be slightly worse (especially if navy was traded out), but it would definitely be workable (which is the goal of a five tie stable). When it comes to need, on the other hand, navy is more fungible than black.
The other really nice thing about black, and I'm not sure whether it has been said yet, is that it is easier to dress up. Any of the other four ties, worn to a nice dinner, you'll look like you just came from the office. Nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is. A black necktie, people are more likely to read it as you put that tie on for that dinner.
I'm not sure why shoes were brought up. The OP presumably has both brown and black shoes. But for the record, I wouldn't wear brown shoes with a black tie.
Claghorn, there is no doubt that you look well dressed in this pic. And you are a clear advocate of the black tie. You yourself mentioned that you find it useful for evenings out. Given that you don't wear black ties with brown shoes, where do you stand on wearing a black tie with a shirt that isn't white?
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