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Things That Are Bothering You, Got You All Hibbeldy-Jibbeldy, or just downright pissed, RIGHT NOW!

brokencycle

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They really need to work on their methodology.
Naples?

Sorry, but Gulf coast south Florida with an economy built on sh!tty tourism and sh!ttier geriatric home healthcare jobs does not seem appealing.

While I generally support median household income, the problem here is that Naples has a population that skews old (~2/3 of the population is over 60 vs ~1/3 nationally) and married (67% vs 46% nationally). So yeah, if you're old and living on dual retirement income, it might be alright.

Also, Americans must not agree seeing the population is declining (probably because old people + FL COVID).

Some of the others are more reasonable/balanced. I don't know about Boise (#2), but is there a lot of local employment? My understanding is COVID remote work drove the income and house prices way up. Then it is a lot southern cities that are reasonably educated and have decent, balanced economies. Then you get to really expensive cities like Boulder and Austin; however, if I look at US News cost of living rankings of cities, it doesn't match other sources I trust more (e.g. The Economist).

Another reason I think their rankings are bullshit (and especially #1 designed to draw clicks and views) is how much each city changes year to year. #1 the last 3 years were: Huntsville (now #7) and Green Bay (now #12).
 

HRoi

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Ahahaha Naples is the best city to live in?? The residents of Naples can’t even stand to live in Naples year round
 

UnFacconable

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It is personal, but I like to think about the way the business property market works…where decisions have far reduced emotional attachment and are typically made by experienced professionals who aren’t swayed by what their mom always told them growing up.

Turns out when left to the professionals, ownership becomes far less common, even among those who could easily afford to own and intend to stay for very long periods of time. Leaving things like maintenance and upkeep to a professional landlord makes a lot of sense…they are probably better at it (e.g. have actual tradesmen on the payroll or lots of experience working with and bidding contractors) and they can spread unexpected costs across multiple properties.

Obviously there are some big differences in the nature of commercial vs residential leases, but this still holds some truth in my view. Also I’d argue many of those differences are driven by the way Americans are taught to think about housing (so leases end up catering only to those with less money or temporary needs).
Eh, triple net leases are pretty common. I don't disagree that lease vs own is largely the province of corporate finance rather than feelings, but the corporate real estate market has developed completely differently from the personal real estate market. Taxes are treated differently, leasing practices are different (can I get a 10-year lease on a single family home with specified rent increases?), landlord tenant law is different, etc.

Even within that sphere, managing a commercial portfolio as a commercial tenant isn't just about finance. You often pay more for "premium" space because the CEO wants it for some reason or other. He wants a better commute, or to be near other fancy companies or whatever. You half-heartedly shop around at the end of your lease term but you stay in your space because it's easier than moving. In a lot of ways it's similar to how families approach a home move. Totally different situation from single 20-somethings who can afford to hop around every year or two because moving just involves renting a u-haul and spending a few hours with your friends. I've managed commercial office lease transactions on a handful of properties (including $10M+ leases) and while the finance piece plays a heavy role, there are a lot of other stakeholders.

I think the biggest reason that the markets are different is because it makes a lot of sense for asset owners to segregate themselves by the investors they attract. It's a lot easier for institutional investors to manage their risk reward tradeoff when the asset classes they invest in are more "pure." It's a lot harder to get investors comfortable with say a high growth technology company where 25% of it's capital is tied up in an office building, even if it's a "good deal." A company like that wouldn't have the high margins and efficient capital usage of a pure tech company or the safety/security of a pure commercial property play.

This is what I was getting at with sale leaseback transactions.
 

Piobaire

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Is it just me or did that top ten of that list skew MAGA?
 

Piobaire

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Just you. Most of the list is blue islands in red states. The only ones that definitely skew red are Naples and Colorado Springs.

That sounds reasonable as I was drawing my conclusion based on the states.
 

Michigan Planner

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They really need to work on their methodology.
Naples?

Sorry, but Gulf coast south Florida with an economy built on sh!tty tourism and sh!ttier geriatric home healthcare jobs does not seem appealing.

My in-laws have a place in a golf community about halfway between Naples and Fort Myers. Politics aside, I love Florida, and especially the SW Gulf Coast area but yeah, I don't know how they get rated as the best place to live. Naples itself is pretty expensive (as are many of the little towns along the coast headed up towards Fort Myers), the schools are not particularly good, property insurance rates are skyrocketing, traffic in Naples is pretty terrible for much of the year, COL is relatively high, the largest employment sectors (by either overall number of jobs or LQ generally have terrible average earnings, etc.

Looking at some commuting pattern data 94% of the folks who work in the city have to commute in from outside. Though there are more jobs in the city than actual residents commuting patterns like this are not necessarily a sign that it's a good place to live for most (nearly 50% of the workers commute from more than 25 miles away).

1716386149922.png




Everytime we're down there I think to myself, this is definitely a nice area to visit or retire to, but where are all these people that work here in these crappy jobs actually living?
 

brokencycle

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My in-laws have a place in a golf community about halfway between Naples and Fort Myers. Politics aside, I love Florida, and especially the SW Gulf Coast area but yeah, I don't know how they get rated as the best place to live. Naples itself is pretty expensive (as are many of the little towns along the coast headed up towards Fort Myers), the schools are not particularly good, property insurance rates are skyrocketing, traffic in Naples is pretty terrible for much of the year, COL is relatively high, the largest employment sectors (by either overall number of jobs or LQ generally have terrible average earnings, etc.

Looking at some commuting pattern data 94% of the folks who work in the city have to commute in from outside. Though there are more jobs in the city than actual residents commuting patterns like this are not necessarily a sign that it's a good place to live for most (nearly 50% of the workers commute from more than 25 miles away).

View attachment 2188353



Everytime we're down there I think to myself, this is definitely a nice area to visit or retire to, but where are all these people that work here in these crappy jobs actually living?
Good info. That's exactly the problem. The "best place to live" is really "the best place to live if you're retired." It reads as affordable because they have an average household income significantly higher than the rest of America (because everyone is old and married as I pointed out).

I think that's the other part of the 'best place to live' index is bullshit. Best for whom? It is impossible given the diversity of the US to create a single index. If you're 20 do you want to be surrounded by 80 year olds? If you're 45 with teenagers do you want to be living next to a frat house?
 

HRoi

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My in-laws have a place in a golf community about halfway between Naples and Fort Myers. Politics aside, I love Florida, and especially the SW Gulf Coast area but yeah, I don't know how they get rated as the best place to live. Naples itself is pretty expensive (as are many of the little towns along the coast headed up towards Fort Myers), the schools are not particularly good, property insurance rates are skyrocketing, traffic in Naples is pretty terrible for much of the year, COL is relatively high, the largest employment sectors (by either overall number of jobs or LQ generally have terrible average earnings, etc.

Looking at some commuting pattern data 94% of the folks who work in the city have to commute in from outside. Though there are more jobs in the city than actual residents commuting patterns like this are not necessarily a sign that it's a good place to live for most (nearly 50% of the workers commute from more than 25 miles away).

View attachment 2188353



Everytime we're down there I think to myself, this is definitely a nice area to visit or retire to, but where are all these people that work here in these crappy jobs actually living?
Responding to the last sentence - they drive in from the poorer areas like Ft Myers, Cape Coral, Estero, etc.

That’s pretty cool data, is that app proprietary to Michigan Planners?
 

Piobaire

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Mrs. Piob has told me more than once that she doesn't even want to visit Florida.
 

HRoi

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I think that's the other part of the 'best place to live' index is bullshit. Best for whom? It is impossible given the diversity of the US to create a single index. If you're 20 do you want to be surrounded by 80 year olds? If you're 45 with teenagers do you want to be living next to a frat house?
Yes, and that’s why I think any serious study shouldn’t even try to attach superlative statements like Best Anything to their conclusions. Doesn’t sell many clicks, but whatevs.

I see some good data-only studies that do a decent job at quantifying one living factor - like, all-in tax burden by state; or safest roads based on traffic fatalities per million miles…maybe peeps should just look at these factors independently
 

Ambulance Chaser

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Austin is the one city on that list that I really like. I'm surprised it didn't get knocked down lower for high cost of living.
 

Texasmade

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Austin is the one city on that list that I really like. I'm surprised it didn't get knocked down lower for high cost of living.
I keep saying youtube videos popping up on my feed how Austin home prices are declining alongside my strictly for educational purpose sheer see through tops try on clips.
 

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