The "X" tightness of the suit jacket, should there be official exceptions?

[Suntory]

Some members have suggested that even skinny folks wearing a larger size could still have the "X" being formed, here Chulillo has a valid point:

I am not a believer that all the X we see in jackets are due to tightness... some times there has to be something else. I have OTR jackets that have never been altered and I have a very big drop (having plenty of space between my body and the fabric of the jacket) and you can see a small X around the button. It is not tightness because a fatter friend of mine tried that particular jacket (he has a 38/40 waist don't remember) and he could button the jacket, so figure... on him it looked terribly tight, but my point is, the jacket has enough room to be able to button that and it shows a small X on me sometimes. Could be the position you are, the way your pecs/shoulders are shaped, who knows...

Certainly with MTM that problem is more likely to go away but if your problem is an X the size of that one in the photo... I wouldn't go MTM unless you are obsessive about these things.

Here are some SF members with a slight X crease, which should be considered acceptable even in their MTM suits:












As you can see, these are not hip members following the disgusting super skinny suit fad, but are quite elegant and beautiful in their nicely fitted suits that still have a slight faded X crease. This is why I think the "No X rule" should not be placed in the same category as the "slight faded creasing X", which is acceptable. Thoughts?

 

[7_rocket]

Doesn't really bother me unless it's very noticeably. I have a MTM suit that pulls slightly because the top button is too high. But now I gained some weight and it's tight, so I'm going to let it out a bit.

The 3rd pic is exactly what I'm talking about. Button stance being high.

 

[Claghorn]

The no X rule speaks to a natural standing posture, arms at the side. An X is created by pulling at the button. In a standing position, there shouldn't be an X if the jacket fits well. The most common fit issue that leads to the X is the jacket waist is too small, but a number of other issues with fit can lead to it.

In most of your examples, the person is in motion or the arms aren't at his side, so some pulling occurs. But for those that are standing straight and still:

Too tight on Foo and it doesn't look good. Could be the picture.

SYCSYC, that jacket has some other issues. Look at the degree of wrinkling all along the right side of the jacket (not just at the button)

The guy below him (blue jacket), the jacket looks too tight, though that could be due to his arms. It doesn't look awful, but it doesn't look great. And it would look better if the jacket were let out just enough to get rid of the pulling.

I don't know who the last picture is of (Dennis Walter?), but it is too tight (possibly because of the sweater) and as a result doesn't look good.

---

In any case, pulling at the button is NEVER as good as no pulling at the button, all else equal. And it is usually a sign that the jacket is too small but it can be a sign of other fit issues.

It doesn't mean a person needs to go MTM and certainly not a reason to go bespoke. But it is a good reason to take the jacket in to a tailor. And if it is something a tailor can't fix, it's a good reason to no longer buy RTW jackets from that particular maker.

---

Spoiler

 

[Suntory]

The no X rule speaks to a natural standing posture, arms at the side. An X is created by pulling at the button. In a standing position, there shouldn't be an X if the jacket fits well. The most common fit issue that leads to the X is the jacket waist is too small, but a number of other issues with fit can lead to it.

In most of your examples, the person is in motion or the arms aren't at his side, so some pulling occurs. But for those that are standing straight and still:

Too tight on Foo and it doesn't look good. Could be the picture.

SYCSYC, that jacket has some other issues. Look at the degree of wrinkling all along the right side of the jacket (not just at the button)

The guy below him (blue jacket), the jacket looks too tight, though that could be due to his arms. It doesn't look awful, but it doesn't look great. And it would look better if the jacket were let out just enough to get rid of the pulling.

I don't know who the last picture is of (Dennis Walter?), but it is too tight (possibly because of the sweater) and as a result doesn't look good.

---

In any case, pulling at the button is NEVER as good as no pulling at the button, all else equal. And it is usually a sign that the jacket is too small but it can be a sign of other fit issues.

It doesn't mean a person needs to go MTM and certainly not a reason to go bespoke. But it is a good reason to take the jacket in to a tailor. And if it is something a tailor can't fix, it's a good reason to no longer buy RTW jackets from that particular maker.

---

Fantastically detailed explanation. Let's keep this thread alive.

 

[The Saint]

I thought we might have got 26 pages out of this. .

 

[Despos]

Teaser: the clue to revealing the cause of the mysterious X is seeing how the jacket drapes when unbuttoned. That’s all I can say about this at present

 

[winston]

Most of those examples above look absolutely fine and not too tight at all. I'd take the 'X' over a jacket that is loose; although I don't believe that tightness in the waist is always the cause of it. It could have something to do with tension being caused by the roll of the lapels. It will take very little tension to cause it.

 

[Jacob E.]

Interesting... never thought about that from such an angle. After reading this, decided to have a closer look - and what do you know, the only one that shows it is actually my LARGEST sport coat, Caruso in the picture below. However, as someone else already noted, it should really be looked at standing still, with arms to the sides. When holding the phone to the side, as I do there, it already creates a tension that skews the result.

 

[gs77]

Teaser: the clue to revealing the cause of the mysterious X is seeing how the jacket drapes when unbuttoned. That’s all I can say about this at present

Will you be reveling some more in the next episode?

 

[Despos]

Will you be reveling some more in the next episode?

Stay tuned mon frere!

 

[dieworkwear]

Stay tuned mon frere!

Is it because the left-right balance is off?

On some of my jackets, I've noticed the X showing up, even though there's a reasonable amount of room in the waist. I find that, when the left-right balance is off, the coat drags a little at the buttoning point when fastened.

I've heard that this happens because the front panels are often cut from the same pattern, with the cloth folded on top of itself. Tailors are supposed to correct for a dropped shoulder at the shoulder seam, but not all do. So then you get a mismatched balance.

Is that the reason why?

(come to think of it, I may have learned this from Despos, but can't remember)

 

[tcbinnc]

Is it because the left-right balance is off?

On some of my jackets, I've noticed the X showing up, even though there's a reasonable amount of room in the waist. I find that, when the left-right balance is off, the coat drags a little at the buttoning point when fastened.

I've heard that this happens because the front panels are often cut from the same pattern, with the cloth folded on top of itself. Tailors are supposed to correct for a dropped shoulder at the shoulder seam, but not all do. So then you get a mismatched balance.

Is that the reason why?

(come to think of it, I may have learned this from Despos, but can't remember)

When I think of a jacket that "fits", Johnnie Carson always comes to mind.

His were cut quite close to the body. But with jacket buttoned, as he always did when standing, and arms at side, there was rarely any undue pulling of the fabric.

And even though, as was his way, he would shrug his shoulders, gesture with his arm and fidget with hands in and out of pockets, the fabric would always return to it's original form when he again stood still.

Could have to do with the things already mentioned of course, but also possibly full vs. half-canvas? Just a thought. I don't really know. But I did always like the way his jacket fit. And any that fits that way now.

Bottomline: I am in the "no X" camp.

 

[Despos]

I thought we might have got 26 pages out of this. .

If this was asked on a Tailor's forum it would be 26 pages plus and just as many answers.
Tailor friend was stumped on how to adjust for a clients posture so he sent pictures around to a bunch of us. He made the rounds asking how we interpreted the pictures and after hearing my thoughts he uttered some profanity and said "How am I going to fit this guy, everybody has a different answer"
Two tailors impressed me with the way they shaped the waist on jackets so I asked each one how they did it. The answers were complete opposite of each other and on top of that each tailor said specifically not to do it the way the other tailor did. Both their jackets were beautiful.
The diversity of ideas in this trade make it more interesting. The creativity creates a multitude of silhouettes and looks.

 

[kylepw]

I see tons of full canvassed MTM/bespoke jackets with a faint crease from center button to armhole, even at pretty much rest position. I think it adds charm but surprised there's not much talk on this topic.

 

[Despos]

These pics will show how balance effects/creates the X.
These jackets are balanced on the body so the front edges are parallel and there is minimal gap between the edges. Both pictures show the jackets draping naturally and the fronts are not pinned or buttoned.
The less parallel the edges and more gap between the edges, the more X pulls will develop. Gap is the distance between the two edges when unbuttoned.
When you have to pull the fronts together to close the jacket, it puts more stress on the buttoning point and creates the diagonal pull lines.
The more your jacket falls away when unbuttoned, the greater the tension on the button because the fronts are wanting to falll away to the natural drape position. This is causing the X tension. When a jacket is balanced like these it reduces tension on the buttoning point.