Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by gdl203, May 20, 2007.
I sold my 25B somewhere in the $2k area back in 2002 (no boxes, with papers)
Cross post from the WAYWRN thread:
thanks kai! now go take some close ups.
I've posted a picture of this watch before. (see above.) Next month, I'm picking up a macro lens, so I can really go to town on the close ups.
I traded my white SS Daytona and a older sub date (late 90s) for a newer white 15300ST. Good trade?
I'm sure you're right. You also mentioned another important point about the gold price since ten years ago: in 2001 it was at its lowest since the 70s. Now it's 300% higher. And still rising.
Naturally, manufacturers make ever-bigger margins as the goods they make go more upmarket: the percentage margin on a Porsche is way bigger than on a Skoda - percentage, not just actual dollars. Look at shoes for instance: making your boots out of Horween shell cordovan instead of fine calf leather probably increases the costs by 20%, but the price often doubles. Double or triple again for crocodile, even though in costs, it's probably only another $40 on the materials. Look at your watch straps: the amount of leather, shell cordovan or crocodile skin used is tiny. The bulk of the cost is in skilled labour, so realistically if a leather strap is $10, there's no reason a cordovan one or even crocodile should be much more. But that's not what happens: who thinks $100 for a cordovan strap sounds strange? Yet it's still only a couple of bucks' worth of material.
So premium products often have a multiplier on the multiplier - partly to keep the sense of exclusivity, and partly because the more expensive, the fewer units that are generally sold. With the Porsche that related to manufacturing economies of scale. But with the shoes, the watch straps, or gold watch casings, it doesn't: it takes no significant increase in work, design or technology to put your watch in a gold case rather than a steel one. You just have to buy a few grams of gold instead of steel.
So that 100% price difference on your shoes, is mostly for bragging rights and bears little relation to costs. And with the watches, the difference ten years ago was definitely not related much to the price of gold. $300 of gold could have made a handful of cases. But now that's $1200. Still no relation to the $5000+ extra cost of your gold watch, but a bigger part of it at least. Although with gold priced in dollars, and the Swiss Franc having appreciated, I guess we've gone full circle!
My New Addition
This baby just arrived a few days ago.
A very reasonable trade if it was an inhouse movement 116520 Daytona. Not a such a good trade if it was Daytona 16520 with Zenith based movement.
Lets see some pix!
Interesting points Mimo.
Cars rarely are a great comparison to watches. One can justify certain price increases with the cost of R& D and technology. In addition some items that used to be extra cost options often become standard equipment.
As for watches. The price of gold really only shot up drastically in the last 2 years or so. So gold prices were essentially irrelevant. Today, yes gold would make a big differnece in the cost of manufacturing especially on a piece like an all gold Daytona or Submariner, which use thick cases and have heavy bracelets.
But watches like the Patek Calatrava, really there has been little development with them at all. Today the cases are slightly larger, thats about it. The movements on them are largely the same. Example, in 2002 my Father bought a new Patek Travel Time ref 5134 in YG from an AD. It had an MRSP of around $13,500. My dad bought it at a nice discount and got it for $10,250. The dealer said its a great deal because a price increase was announced and it was going to carry an MSRP of around $17,000 in 30 days. The price increase happened. Then it happened again a year or 2 later and was around $20,000. Last I had seen it was around $23,000. Somewhere along the way the dial changed slightly, but it was basically the exact same watch not matter which year you bought it...only the price changed (it increased, and discounts became very difficult to come by through ADs). The same thing happened with their 5712/A1. Beautiful watch, its only change from the first year it was out as the 3712 was an increase in the case of 1mm. When the 3712 came out it was $19,900...now its $36,000...and those are for steel watches.
There are other examples similar to Patek from Vacheron and several other watch brands. In the end the huge boost in prices happened systematically from about 2001 to 2009...because manufacturers jacked up the prices and have been much tougher on ADs about discounting. The increased price and reduced discounts mean no matter what, the buyer is paying significantly more than he would have paid just a few years ago. The more recent increases are at least partially explained by exchange rates, gold prices, etc.
I had a Travel Time. It was a good looking watch, but the hands had the annoying habit of moving on their own because the buttons would get depressed by accident. It happened often enough that I couldn't trust the time on the watch, which is pretty much a watch's primary function. I ended up selling the watch and got more than I had paid for it (I bought it brand new from an AD.)
Good points all around. Just thought it was worth mentioning that Vass is one of the companies that doesn't do that. They only charge an extra €50 or so for cordovan, which is admirable.
any day you can do that, is a good day in my book.
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