The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by gdl203, May 20, 2007.

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  1. gazman70k

    gazman70k Senior member

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    Love the use of platinum on the outer edge of the rotor... such innovation and attention to detail puts Lange at the top of my list.

    Saving my pennies for the Lange Daymatik!!! [​IMG]
     


  2. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    What Lang und Heyne does to the Unitas is a great horological Ship of Theseus (a paradox of whether an object that has all of its component parts replace remains fundamentally the same object).

    In Mafoo's post, he views the Lang und Heyne Calibre 1 as a Unitas movement. However, as you said, Lang und Heyne actually refashions and/or remake almost all of the base components of the Unitas ebauche, including the screws. My view is that the Calibre 1 has so many of its components changed that its no longer a Unitas.

    By this logic, JC Biver has argued that Hublot's 7750 base calibre is in-house (especially the magnesium alloy ones) as the majority of the 7750 ebauche has also been replaced.


    Thanks gaz- I think I agree with you on this
     


  3. vbuskirk

    vbuskirk Senior member

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    [​IMG]


    IWC rose gold rocks. Found myself strapped to this one for a short time today.
    [​IMG]
     


  4. acidboy

    acidboy Senior member

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    Shit nay for me. Don't like that dial color combination and hate that red 60 with a vengeance. Let's see what other dial/metal combos they will come up with (+ the 7 or 8 limited editions of course)

    then I guess the Port Yacht Club won't be in your watchbox anytime soon. [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    more sihh/basel pron, for discussion:

    Longines Lindbergh's Atlantic Voyage Watch
    [​IMG]

    Girard-Perregaux Quartz Laureato (aka- GP Royal Oak [​IMG] )
    [​IMG]

    Girard-Perregaux for Ermenegildo Zegna
    [​IMG]

    Glashütte Original Senator Sixties Panorama Date [​IMG] a step down from the first GO sixties imo
    [​IMG]

    Jaeger-LeCoultre Duometre a Quantieme Lunaire
    [​IMG]

    Vacheron Constantin Patrimony Traditionnelle Chronograph
    [​IMG]
     


  5. Ahriman4891

    Ahriman4891 Senior member

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    In Mafoo's post, he views the Lang und Heyne Calibre 1 as a Unitas movement. However, as you said, Lang und Heyne actually refashions and/or remake almost all of the base components of the Unitas ebauche, including the screws. My view is that the Calibre 1 has so many of its components changed that its no longer a Unitas. By this logic, JC Biver has argued that Hublot's 7750 base calibre is in-house (especially the magnesium alloy ones) as the majority of the 7750 ebauche has also been replaced.
    What constitutes a movement? The engineering thought that went into it or the superficial features? Perlage/blued screws/platinum strip on the edge of the rotor are not watchmaking, they are more in the jeweller's art category. Basically, if I take a poem, and rewrite each verse in a different fancy font (that may even add to the emotion of a particular verse), addinig miniature illustrations here and there, would I be justified to say I authored a poem? Did I put any thought into creating poetry? JMO: it's a Unitas. A pimped one, where the pimpage may be considered a form of art by itself, but still a Unitas. Nothing wrong with that. [​IMG]
     


  6. vbuskirk

    vbuskirk Senior member

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    ... a Unitas. Nothing wrong with that. [​IMG]

    Amen. [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     


  7. gazman70k

    gazman70k Senior member

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    What constitutes a movement? The engineering thought that went into it or the superficial features? Perlage/blued screws/platinum strip on the edge of the rotor are not watchmaking, they are more in the jeweller's art category. Basically, if I take a poem, and rewrite each verse in a different fancy font (that may even add to the emotion of a particular verse), addinig miniature illustrations here and there, would I be justified to say I authored a poem? Did I put any thought into creating poetry?

    JMO: it's a Unitas. A pimped one, where the pimpage may be considered a form of art by itself, but still a Unitas. Nothing wrong with that. [​IMG]



    Basically, if I take a poem, and rewrite each verse in a different fancy font (that may even add to the emotion of a particular verse), addinig miniature illustrations here and there, would I be justified to say I authored a poem?


    I would argue that you have given the poem emphasis that may differ to that of the original author. Depending on the emphasis, especially as you mention giving emotion to a particular verse, you may change the overall essence of the poem, thus creating a different interpretation. It is your creativity nonetheless. But let's not get carried away by it as here lies the paradox offered by the Ship of Theseus. Philosophers have been debating this since ancient Greece. I don't think Styleforum is the right place to discuss this. [​IMG]

    Regardless, we should be able to agree that the Unitas represents a universal, if not classical, execution of a robust manual winding movement that is efficient in design but yet flexible enough for modification. It is the master stock, if you will, of manual winding movements and in the hands of a skilled watch maker, can become something more than it is. I assert that what Lang und Heyne has done to the humble Unitas elevates it to haute horlogerie.

    Here's the calibre IV which has been enhanced with a monopusher column-wheel chorograph module.

    [​IMG]

    Note the big chronograph wheel, with its phenomenal 200 teeth!

    Another example is what Kari Voutilainen has done to vintage Perseus movement:

    [​IMG]

    See this wonderful post by Felipe Jordao: http://forums.timezone.com/index.php...rt=0&rid=24122

    You wrote that "Perlage/blued screws/platinum strip on the edge of the rotor are not watchmaking, they are more in the jeweller's art category". How would you categorise Kari Voutilainen, Philip Dufour, Roger Smith and Romain Gauthier then? Are they just mere jewellers?


    Gaz
     


  8. Ahriman4891

    Ahriman4891 Senior member

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    See this wonderful post by Felipe Jordao: http://forums.timezone.com/index.php...rt=0&rid=24122
    Thanks for the link, good read.
    Why "mere" jewellers? [​IMG] I see no reason why some jewellers cannot be considered artists. IMHO, a watchmaker is someone like Breguet or Daniels, who actually moves horology forward. I don't see e.g. Kari Voutilainen as belonging in the same category, with all due respect to him. I would call these gentlemen "tuners", similar to performance car tuners. [warning, another bad analogy!] E.g. Hennessey can tune your Corvette, and he is apparently really good at it, but he is no Adrian Newey. I am honestly not trying to insult either Hennessey or Voutilainen [​IMG] they do what they like doing and enjoy success at it -- kudos and more power to them.
     


  9. maomao1980

    maomao1980 Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    All this tech talk is confusing me, I thought a watch is supposed to do just one of the two things: tell time, or say f**k you.
     


  10. GuidoWongolini

    GuidoWongolini Senior member

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    All this tech talk is confusing me, I thought a watch is supposed to do just one of the two things: tell time, or say f**k you.
    - [​IMG]
     


  11. gazman70k

    gazman70k Senior member

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    Thanks for the link, good read. Why "mere" jewellers? [​IMG] I see no reason why some jewellers cannot be considered artists. IMHO, a watchmaker is someone like Breguet or Daniels, who actually moves horology forward. I don't see e.g. Kari Voutilainen as belonging in the same category, with all due respect to him. I would call these gentlemen "tuners", similar to performance car tuners. [warning, another bad analogy!] E.g. Hennessey can tune your Corvette, and he is apparently really good at it, but he is no Adrian Newey. I am honestly not trying to insult either Hennessey or Voutilainen [​IMG] they do what they like doing and enjoy success at it -- kudos and more power to them.
    I disagree with your definition of a watchmaker because you would then have to define what constitutes material advancements in horology. Your car engine tuning analogy is interesting (but not bad) since I would like to see you apply your advancement logic to car technology. Would everyone after Ford and Benz by just fine tuners of the internal combustion engine? Maybe you should consider me the village idiot and try explaining your point using sock puppets. FARK! I am beginning to sound like Mafoo.
     


  12. gazman70k

    gazman70k Senior member

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    - [​IMG]

    I thought you don't post here anymore, Phatty Moo!
     


  13. gdl203

    gdl203 Affiliate Vendor Dubiously Honored Affiliate Vendor

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    See this wonderful post by Felipe Jordao: http://forums.timezone.com/index.php...rt=0&rid=24122

    I would point out that the more open-minded and intelligent watch amateurs I know can appreciate haute horlogerie and unique independent watchmaking just as much as the value of a proven workhorse like Unitas. As a good example, Felipe himself also owns a PAM210
     


  14. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

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    I don't have a problem with a Unitas or ETA workhouse ebauche. My point is that I don't really value the extensive ornamentation and re-crafting done to pretty them up. To a degree, I find it tasteless.

    To me, watchmaking is fundamentally about engineering mechanical solutions, not decoration. Decoration is the icing on the cake. A Dornbluth is all icing--like a cheap, fused RTW suit, but with a fancy lining treatment, pick-stitching, and working buttonholes. Now, not to be too pejorative, Dornbluth might very well do some things to actually increase the efficiency and precision of the ebauches it uses--however, nobody can argue that the screwed gold chatons are anything but quasi-historical references, without any purpose other than pretentiousness. None of the major houses use them except for Lange, who is similarly desperate to establish a connection with the past. Patek and VC don't use them, and they probably never have in a wristwatch movement.

    The IWC 5000-caliber movement is, in fact, as refined in finish as any Patek caliber. The difference is in the concept and style. IWC has never been known for highly ornate finishing. They've always been very technically oriented, so their finishing is intended to do two things: (1) increase functionality, and (2) convey a serious, precision-minded approach to watchmaking. So, you might not like the style of the finish, but you would be wrong to assume it is not done as carefully or as nicely because it is not as obviously ornate. See all the those unbeveled edged? Beveling can be pretty, but it is also easier to make look good. It takes very, very low manufacturing tolerances to keep the edges unbeveled, yet sharp and clean looking.

    Also, I find value in a movement's provenance. The truth is, that is what most often distinguishes between one movement and another--not accuracy, or even precision. The IWC 5000, unlike the Dornbluth re-built Unitas, was designed and engineered from the ground up as an IWC movement to be used in IWC watches, in the tradition of IWC watchmaking, which represents the only watchmaking tradition to come out of the German-speaking region of Switzerland. Consider the value of a Ferrari engine. Much of its value stems from its Ferrari-ness, not its horsepower and torque numbers. The sound and feel of a Ferrari connects you to the place and culture that developed it. Would you feel differently if the engine were really a gussied-up Ford?

    Anyway, I don't mean to be too hard on highly-decorated ebauches. My main point is that it's a mistake to confuse baroque decoration for refinement or quality.
     


  15. gdl203

    gdl203 Affiliate Vendor Dubiously Honored Affiliate Vendor

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    That's a useless debate
     


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