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The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by gdl203, May 20, 2007.

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  1. tricky

    tricky Senior member

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    I would go white as well.

    Are there deals to be had on the white face Daytona?
     
  2. DeSense

    DeSense Senior member

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    "Does it come in Black?" 'nuff said. ;)
    (To bring some balance to the table.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2016
  3. CHRK33

    CHRK33 Senior member

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    Ditto on white!
     
  4. Dino944

    Dino944 Senior member

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    I've owned Daytonas with black dials and white dials. White is easier to read at a glance. However, I just don't care for the modern Daytona with a white dial (something about the silver colored subdials on the white dial just looks too stark, and even though they use the same lum plots, I think the lum plots look better on the black). The white dials were IMHO nicer looking when they had black subdial trim rings on the prior ref 16520 (El Primero based models) or full black subdials on the old manual winds (sometimes called Panda Dials). I've since sold off my white dial Daytonas and only the kept black dial models. I suppose I'm the devil's advocate since I'm the only one here who favors black. Either way, its a great watch so you really can't go wrong. (PS... a current model will look slightly different than the photo you borrowed, as that shows the early "Thin hand models." In 2004/2005 they switched to the so called "Fat hand" models as seen in DDDRees and my photos)

    [​IMG]

    Not really. Most AD's won't discount steel Rolex watches, and the few that were discounting them in the past were not discounting Daytonas. Years ago one was lucky to pay MSRP. AD's had wait lists 4-5 years long, and some ADs and all grays were selling them at anywhere between a 50-100% mark up over MSRP. Long wait lists ended with the melt down of the global economy in 2008. Around that time there were stories of some AD's selling steel Daytonas at a discount just to make some sales during a rough time (My dad picked up a new white dial ss Daytona and got a 5% discount in 2009). However, the dealer where he bought it along with many other AD's lost their Rolex franchises in a big move (during 2010 & 2011) to consolidate and eliminate ADs who had been discounting. That move had a strong chilling effect on Rolex ADs and their willingness to discount the steel models.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2016
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  5. tricky

    tricky Senior member

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    Wow super informative as always Dino. Thanks for that insight!
     
  6. jbarwick

    jbarwick Senior member

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    I have only ever seen a black faced two-tone Daytona that I can remember which looked quite good. I would prefer that to the Ever Rose face I saw over the holidays but that is 3x the price.
     
  7. jhcam8

    jhcam8 Senior member

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    If you're interested in reading the subdials, then white it the best option.
     
  8. Dino944

    Dino944 Senior member

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    Glad it was helpful. Cheers!

    Not really, if one is really interested in reading the subdials at a glance one should go vintage. The subdials were much easier to read when they were black or white rather than silver.
     
  9. jhcam8

    jhcam8 Senior member

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    OK, but of the two he asked about white is easier to read. If one is truly interested in a legible subdial then there are better options, but they won't be Rolex. :)
     
  10. Dino944

    Dino944 Senior member

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    Yes, I also mentioned white is the easier to read. I was merely pointing out that the vintage ones were the easiest to read. Cheers!
     
  11. jhcam8

    jhcam8 Senior member

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    Cheers, Dino!
     
  12. Belligero

    Belligero Senior member

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    I'm with Dino on the Daytona dial thing.

    I started with the white deal but swapped out to black.

    While the white dial is possibly better in photos:

    [​IMG]

    I find that the black dial is the better colour for wearing:

    [​IMG]

    And in my friend's hands, I find the black dial doesn't photograph too badly, either:

    [​IMG]
    image credit: loevhagen

    However, they're both good and I find they go with anything. Also, I've had thoughts of adding a Zenith-movement 16520 in white.
     
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  13. SteveH35

    SteveH35 Senior member

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    Let me know when you want one and I'll help you out

    -S
     
  14. Dino944

    Dino944 Senior member

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    I greatly prefer the old Zenith based movement 16520 in white to the white 116520 Rolex movement Daytonas. I've owned the 16520 in black and white (and only traded the white to add a black dial 16528 to my collection). At times I wish I had kept that one, but the black was always my grail watch in grad school. Aesthetically, I prefer the slimmer hour markers, the black and white subdial trim rings. Beyond that, although the movement doesn't have the same power reserve as the new models, it supposedly had nearly 200 modifications from the base movement El Primero, and was considered the last Rolex movement to have a significant amount of hand workmanship. I've owned 5 with this movement, and it was one of the most accurate watches I've owned, new right out of the box (not fast, not slow, just dead on accurate).

    Here is my 16520...on and BTW great photos of the black dial on a 16520 be it yours or your friend's watch & photo.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
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  15. tigerpac

    tigerpac Senior member

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    Appreciate the insights, very helpful and thoughtful as always!

    The Zenith-era dials are very great. Love the history of the movement and the way Rolex rebuilt it to purpose.

    I was close to going that direction but think I'm going to end up with the current model, at least this time. You do make me take pause with the decision again though.

    But, at least for the white dial, the newer version pops better to me. That combined with the movement upgrades so eloquently described by Paul Boutros below I'm heading towards new. Also love the newer Rolex bracelets.

    http://www.hodinkee.com/articles/a-...on-of-the-rolex-daytona-past-to-present-pt-23
     
  16. Belligero

    Belligero Senior member

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    Although I somewhat prefer the look of the previous-generation Daytona, I think the newer one is better for wearing, too — the bracelet and the movement are fantastic. If I do add an older one, it will be more for its potential collectibility than to wear regularly.

    That three-part series on Hodinkee is a very good reference. You've likely also seen the watchmaker's detailed assessment at the end of their manufacturing facility feature, which I've excerpted below:


    I spoke to a friend who is an independent watchmaker – he does not work for Rolex but does, with some regularity, work on them, in addition to watches from several other brands. He asked that he remained anonymous. Here is what he had to say:

    "Setting Dufour and Voutilainen level movement finishing aside, from a pure engineering perspective, Rolex's 3130 based calibers have reigned supreme for close to 30 years now. No mass-produced movement outside of Rolex comes close to matching their quality, durability, and reliability. They have come terribly close to defining the epitome of what a perfectly conceived mechanical watch movement should be.

    Rolex took everything that was good about their 3130 series of movements and applied it to a chronograph. But they didn't stop there. They also took a long, hard, critical look at how they could improve upon the design thinking behind the 3130 to make it even more reliable. They looked at the weak points of the 4030, as well, and determined how best they could improve on what they had learned from it. The result was the 4130.
    As for improvements on the 4030, there are several. Top five, in my opinion, would be:

    1. Vertical clutch
    2. Modularity of automatic section
    3. Full balance bridge with height adjustment nut
    4. Single point of adjustment for the chronograph system (versus five in the 4030)
    5. Parachrome hairspring – I believe it was there from the beginning, sans blue colour at the outset

    On top of that, they kept the goodness that was already in the 4030, such as the column wheel and free-sprung, microstella balance wheel (which Rolex equips all of its modern calibers with).

    They didn't stop with all of that, either, though. Getting back to your reason for touching base: they have quietly been improving on the design since its debut at the turn of the millennium."

    He continued: "It is not unusual for Rolex to make incremental improvements to their calibers. The 1500 series went through multiple iterations over its long history. The 3000 series received small improvements, tweaking part tolerances. All of the ladies' calibers have also seen small improvements over the years. That's the Rolex way. Continually improving things, down to the smallest details. The upgrades to the 4130 haven't been mere tweaks, however, they bring notable improvements."

    "An 'upgrade' they did make some noise about was the blue Parachrome hairspring. As alluded to above, earlier 4130s were equipped with a white 'Parachrome' hairspring built on the same molecular foundation. Once proven and, in light of cutbacks from Swatch Group and its subsidiaries like Nivarox, it was important for Rolex to market this milestone in their vertical integration of production. More importantly, to me, the Parachrome hairspring was a serious horological leap forward in terms of precision and reliability of timekeeping."

    "They made a small upgrade to the train wheel bridge, modifying some of the components and the way that they operate upon it, to improve the reliability of the hour and minute counters. I would class this upgrade as being similar to the minor upgrades made to previous generations of Rolex movements."

    "A more notable upgrade that they introduced is a hairspring protection block, which eliminates any possible risk of the lower coils of the hairspring tangling in the hairspring's overcoil when the watch endures a hard blow. To the best of my knowledge, this was a horological first. I have never seen anything like it from any other watch company. It is stunningly brilliant in its simplicity and it does its job flawlessly. While the wearer of a Daytona may never notice it's there, they would quickly notice if it were not should the watch take a hard knock."

    "The biggest incognito upgrade are playless gears in the chronograph system. As I'm sure you already know, the vertical clutch system of the 4130 eliminates the jarring start of the second that can be noticed on chronographs that feature a lateral clutch when the chronograph is started. Playless gears take this to the next level, by eliminating backlash between gear teeth. In simple terms, backlash is a small amount of space, or 'play,' between the teeth of two gears that are interacting with one another, so that one tooth can disengage as another tooth moves in to continue to the transfer of energy.

    "A certain amount of backlash is necessary in any traditional gear system to prevent the gear train from binding and locking up. Unless the profiles of every single gear tooth are absolutely perfect (impossible), the spacing between the gears remains absolutely perfect (impossible), and there is zero play in the motion of the gears themselves (unlikely and inefficient), the tooth that is disengaging will become jammed between the tooth it is pushing and the tooth that is trailing it if there is no backlash. Thus, backlash was a necessary evil. To solve the issue, Rolex fabricates playless gears, one atom at a time, using a process known as LiGa (lithography-galvanoplasty). An additive manufacturing process. LiGa makes it possible to create gear forms that would be impossible to realize using traditional machining tools."

    "With this technology, Rolex was able to devise a gear form wherein the center of each gear tooth can be hollowed out, leaving behind two spring-like flanges that act as what would traditionally be the full tooth form. In this manner, both sides of the tooth can remain engaged with the gear it is interacting with throughout the entire duration of the tooth's transfer of energy, taking up any necessary play (backlash) in the hollow area in the center of the tooth."

    "MB&F made some fuss about LiGa gears when they launched the HM2. That was the first time I had heard of this technology, which Jean-Marc Wiederrecht / Agenhor employed for the retrograde minutes. Little did I know then that Rolex had already rolled out this technology, in relative mass production, with the introduction of the Yacht-Master II earlier that year. After proving itself in the wild, in the Yacht-Master II, the technology was introduced as an upgrade to the Daytona several years later, bringing absolutely fluid and seamless motion to the chronograph hands as they start and reset."
    "In sum, Rolex's 4130 represents the pinnacle of horological engineering. It is, arguably, the superlative in mechanical timekeeping. From its inception to its present incarnation, I have yet to encounter another watch movement that comes close to matching the thoughtfulness and attention to detail so evident in the 4130's design."

    So, how is that for an endorsement?

    source: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/inside-rolex


    I have a friend who's an independent watchmaker (accredited by Rolex, among others), and hearing his similar thoughts on the current Daytona movement was influential in my decision to get one three years ago. No regrets. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
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  17. culverwood

    culverwood Senior member

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    Finally got to wear the watch after Christmas
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Dachshund

    Dachshund Senior member

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    Got something awesome to show you guys in a couple of days. A total surprise Christmas present from Mrs Dachshund, which she chose herself, completely unassisted, and absolutely nailed. Sadly we were abroad so she could only show me a picture - it's waiting for me when I get home. Not a watch, but some very cool watch paraphernalia.
     
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  19. Dino944

    Dino944 Senior member

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    The longer power reserve, easier to service movement, larger lum markings on the hands & dial, along the more modern bracelet with solid links and machined clasp, definitely make the modern Daytona a great choice for a daily wearer, especially for someone who does extreme biking and other rugged activities.

    Although the previous generation could handle it (I wore one as a daily wearer for 5 years, I didn't baby that one, and it took whatever I could dish out), today I wouldn't use a vintage Daytona for very rugged activities. I tend to baby my 16520, and use the 116520 for more regular use/activities. Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
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  20. tigerpac

    tigerpac Senior member

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    Jeez so people weren't kidding when they said Daytonas were sometimes hard to from ADs.

    The first AD, whom I bought two Rolexes from in 2014 while on vacation said, "oh yeah we don't have any and don't like to ship out of state anyway, but we'll keep you in mind when we get one in"

    Wow, OK, that's the end of that relationship!

    Second AD said they can get me one, but won't have any idea on when for a few days until Rolex gets back to them. Progress I guess...


    Luckily, our lovely community has people who can help source such things :)
     
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