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The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by gdl203, May 20, 2007.

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  1. Epaulet

    Epaulet Senior member Affiliate Vendor

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    I had the pleasure of meeting with Mr. Fukushima from Ring Jacket today. Shot a pic of our dual AP's...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2015
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  2. rydenfan

    rydenfan Senior member

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  3. tricky

    tricky Senior member

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    Game over.
     
  4. no frills

    no frills Senior member

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    #FookingBoom
     
  5. Tried and True

    Tried and True Senior member

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    Really? And their reason?
     
  6. CHRK33

    CHRK33 Senior member

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    Is there Ring Jacket x Epauler MTO in our future?
     
  7. Tried and True

    Tried and True Senior member

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    That bracelet/watch look Mr. F is sporting leaves me cold.
     
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  8. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior member

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    Looks like a guarantee that the AP case will be scratched, at the very least! I think that it makes his wrist look a bit crowded, personally.

    In other news, I decided to idly browse a local watch retailer at lunch-time today and tried on a Tudor Pelagos, a Tudor Black Bay, Rolex Submariner and Rolex Deepsea.

    I loved the look of the Pelagos the most out of all of them, but even though it was quite light due to the titanium construction, it just seemed too bulky for my wrist. Strangely, the Deepsea looked and felt smaller (albeit heavier) even though its case is slightly larger than that of the Pelagos.

    The Black Bay felt very nice but, as I suspected, I just couldn't get past the coloured stem next to the crown. Why, oh why did Tudor have to colour that and why couldn't it just have a normal, screw-down crown without the coloured stem?

    The Submariner and the Deepsea were both very nice and the Deepsea was surprisingly comfortable, despite its bulk. Of course, the Submariner is about twice as much as the Tudor Pelagos and 2.5 times as much as the Black Bay and the Deepsea is about three times as much as the Pelagos (in Australia, at least)!

    If only the Black Bay didn't have the coloured crown stem... I'll have to think about it - maybe it will grow on me.
     
  9. TheWraith

    TheWraith Senior member

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    ^ Sub all the way! :D
     
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  10. mimo

    mimo Senior member

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    I'm really drawn to the Black Bay. Funny about the coloured stem - it doesn't jump out at me: I remember trying the Omega Planet Ocean with the blue liquidmetal, and being put off by the same thing on the pushers of the chrono version. But on the crown alone, it doesn't bug me.

    The Pelagos is great; I like the size, but I don't like it x% more than the Black Bay, and it feels so much more like a substitute for the Submariner. I also find that titanium feels so flimsy. Silly, because that's the point, but I do like the heft of a lump of steel on that kind of watch. I think I'd go for the blue Black Bay on a bracelet just for the value, or the plain Sub if I had the money. The Deep Sea is kinky specialist interest, and I like it, but it's a lot of dough for the extra numbers: I'm wondering if it felt smaller because of the narrower bracelet? Its top-heavy nature is well discussed here, but in direct comparison with the larger bracelets on the lighter Black Bays, I guess it really feels different.
     
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  11. Gazelle

    Gazelle Member

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    I think it's because old ones do not use standard parts and apparently they have a limited number of employees trained to service the older models - I thing they call it classic or vintage service.
    Had my sub done 2yrs ago - had replacement clasp on strap (it's the newer type strap as the old sprung link one died) and service was £980 - so there are some advantages to owning newer versions.
    The Sea Dweller was £700+ to service (the strap was OK) Had to specify that they left the old crystal in as replacing it screws with the resale value, so they refuse to certify it as waterproof to specified depths. As I don't do compression diving I figure it's unlikely to either leak or explode on my wrist lol.
    However I don't buy into the 'regular service' stuff. Get it serviced if and when it runs dry or goes wrong. They replace any worn parts included in the service price. Seems stupid to get a waterproof/ dust proof watch serviced when that is the case.
    In the first James Bond film Dr No, Rolex refused to give them a Rolex to use so the one you see actually belonged to Cubby Broccoli...how times change.
    When I first got my Sub it was very rare to see anyone wear one - now from the look of the shops in London it seems everyone must have one, which is why I queried why they would want to change the dial and the case so much.
     
  12. ShawnBC

    ShawnBC Senior member

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    FWIW I love the Black Bay (both in Burgundy/Red and Blue) despite the colored stem - in fact I quite like it actually!
     
  13. Dino944

    Dino944 Senior member

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    I don't think its so much that they didn't use standard parts, as much as the supply of parts for much older watches is limited (so they can charge more), or if a part is no longer available they may have to seek out older watch service shops to see if anyone has the part and will sell it to them.

    As for waiting until the watch stops working and letting them replace worn out parts, that could become more difficult as these watches become older and the supply or replacement parts dry up. About 10 years ago I asked at the New York Rolex service center what the oldest watch was that they had in for service. The person told me they had a watch come in from the early 60's but she said they had to turn it away as they did not have the parts for it anymore. Back then no one expected the watches to last that long so they didn't maintain a quantity of spare parts that they do today. So perhaps, its a better idea to service the watch and keep the parts in good working order with as little wear and tear as possible if its a much older piece. Rolex promises to maintain a supply of parts for 20 years after a piece goes out of production, but as of this point in time they don't seem interested in making parts for older watches.

    As for why Rolex would change so many aspects of the Sub, its to remain competitive. Things don't remain at a standstill in any industry. They wouldn't be able to charge roughly $7,500-8,500 and be competitive in the market place delivering a watch on an old rivet style bracelet, with hollow clam shell endlinks, and a stamped steel clasp. As for the dials I believe the use of tritium on watches was banned by around 1998, hence many companies including Rolex were forced to switch to luminova and other alternatives. Also, Rolex updated the models to make them look a bit more modern over the years. Remember vintage watches weren't very popular in the late 70s and 1980's. So Rolex needed to update models so that they would look current rather than maintaining a look that hadn't changed much since the 1950s. However, most changes have been evolutionary and one can still see much of the traditional Sub heritage in a modern Sub. Companies like Omega would completely scrap models in the 1980's such as the Seamaster and come out with a completely different model carrying the same name. Or Vacheron would make a 222 sports watch, then a 333 that looked nothing like it and then go to a Phidias and then finally an Overseas. We all have our preferences, but I think Rolex has done a pretty good job of keeping the Subs looking current while maintaining a family resemblance to its ancestors.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
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  14. dddrees

    dddrees Senior member

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    When it comes to servicing Rolex vintage watches exotic dials and originality can be a massive headache and a potential legal nightmare.
     
  15. Gazelle

    Gazelle Member

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    Some good and valid points. However I think that the sales of certain 'luxury brands' is also attributable to people's relative wealth. Income was relatively very poor for most in the 60's and 70's and I wonder how many people stacking shelves in Sainsburys chose to spend there money on Rolex watches as I did?

    I think and hope that if you were to offer the Sub in 70's guise rather than the later incarnations, their sales would be equal to today's market and I think most would prefer the 70's styling. Apparently the movements pre fastbeat were better quality too.

    Perhaps you can liken the whole thing to the vintage Les Paul market. You can buy a good new Les Paul but everyone, with an ounce of common sense, wants a 58, 59 or 60 Standard sunburst.

    The points you make about servicing are valid. However you can take your watch into most quality jewellers and without opening the back, they can advise you if it is running dry. As far as I am aware in a dustproof watch that will be the main concern. The price to service a vintage Rolex is prohibitive as I am on limited funds.

    Interesting thought about the spare parts for service. It is very true that as the vintage market becomes more popular the demand for spares will exhaust any stock they keep.
     
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  16. Tried and True

    Tried and True Senior member

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    This is my policy as well. I have several watches that I got new 25+ years ago that have never been worn (much less serviced).They've been sitting in their cases collecting dust though every couple of years I'll give them a wind and they run fine, albeit a few minutes slow per day. I've shared this with a few people who are very knowledgable about watches and they were neither surprised (that they were running so well) nor horrified (that they'd never been serviced.)
     
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  17. Dino944

    Dino944 Senior member

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    I'm not quite sure what your point is when you say "the sales of certain 'luxury brands' is also attributable to people's relative wealth." Are you saying people had less money back then, so Rolex (and other luxury brands ) sold fewer watches? Sure, I'd believe that. In addition, remember the quartz revolution was in full force in the 1970s, and most watch companies making automatic and manual wind watches were not doing well back then. Actually, the Oysterquartz became their top of the line watch with a higher MSRP than a Sub, SD, GMT, Explorer II etc.

    As for the movements being better quality back then, sorry, but that's nonsense. Yes, there are people that pine for the old days, and old ways, and that's ok. I have heard people say, that vintage Rolex, PP, VC, AP etc movements are higher quality than they are today. However, I've also talked to people with extensive experience and who have examined old and new movements. The old movements were the best quality the companies could do back then and it was very good, but they aren't actually higher quality than they are today. The current movements are as well made if not better in most cases.

    Regarding your Les Paul point, yes that is true. However, I'd guess that in 1965 or 1975 a 1959 Les Paul was merely an old used guitar and plenty of people would have bought a new one rather than a used one. I wonder how many people would want a 59 because its sounds or plays better? I'd be willing to guess that as values have gone up interest in vintage guitars to some degree has increased. Your example is much like a 1956 Mercedes 300SL Gullwing, which in the 1970s was merely an old sports car that had depreciated and could be bought for $7,000. People couldn't give them away. Yet today, they are over a $ 1 million and most collectors would rather have an original 1950's 300SL over the modern SLS gullwing of a few years ago.

    The idea of Rolex selling as many units today if selling a watch in the 70's guise...I think there would be a market for it, but its tainted by people who are enamored with the values of vintage items (and that goes both for dealers and buyers), than with the actual item itself. I've heard people selling modern orange hand Explorer 2s, and as a selling point saying , "The vintage versions sell at auction for 2-3 times the price of a current new one. Making the new one a bargain and it will probably go up in value." There are people that fall for that. What sellers leave out is that the modern ones are made in much greater numbers, so they will never be as rare as the original. In addition, its easier to come across more recent NOS condition watches than mint condition to NOS watches of the 1960's and 70's because people wore and used their watches back then. Few people saved them and rarely wore them with the idea that someday they would be collectible (just look at all the modern Pateks that are available in unopened packages on various websites...collectible but they will never be as rare or valuable as the models from the 1950s).

    In addition, new watch buyers might like the looks of the vintage pieces particularly the dials. Every year people on TZ and other places predict and hope for a new SS Daytona with an original Paul Newman style dial. While they want the look of a rare Paul Newman Daytona, they want it without the expense of the original. The people in the market for a new but vintage style looking Rolex are not true vintage watch buyers. They want the solid end links, bracelet links and machined clasp of a new one, along with the modern movement with 72 hr power reserve, and some even want a date added...particularly when they are spending $12K+. The people buying vintage and who value originality are a different market than many new watch buyers. I'm not saying their wouldn't be some overlap, just that I don't think Rolex could be continue to sell 70's style Subs at the prices these watches go for today without some modern improvements particularly to the bracelet and clasps. With Omega, Breitling, and IWC fighting for a larger market share, Rolex can't sell people watches with hollow bracelets, and stamped clasps anymore. It just won't fly, and I say that as someone who owns several Rolex watches that have stamped steel clasps and hollow center link bracelets. The old ones work well, but we come to expect higher quality with each generation of watches. New Subs, Explorers, GMTs etc might not be for you, but there are many fans of the newer watches.
     
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  18. Dino944

    Dino944 Senior member

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    On a waterproof Rolex, sure I think a 5 year service interval is way too short, and it can go well beyond that. However, 25 year old watches that have never been serviced and run several minutes slow per day...sorry but they need a service..I'd be concerned about metal contact, congealed oils, etc. Your argument is like saying that you have never serviced your car but when you turn the key in the ignition it starts and its just fine, even with lots of smoke pouring out of the exhaust pipe. Sorry but running a few minutes slow a day is a sign that it needs a service. That people you told this to didn't say anything, why would it matter to them? They are your watches and its your money...if you don't want to spend what it takes to take care of your possessions it doesn't affect me, them or anyone but you.
     
  19. Gazelle

    Gazelle Member

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    Wow Dino 944, have to agree with a lot of what you say [​IMG], but of course there is always a however.
    Errrm some 59 Les Pauls really do sound better, and many do look better. Gibson sell all sorts of Les Pauls but some of the most expensive custom shop Les Pauls are the historics. So perhaps there may be a market for re issue Subs.
    You see the Sub was a Rolex classic not just any old Oyster. As regards whether the movements or construction was better or worse I am no expert so have no opinion. There is no doubt that the resale of a 70's Sub is higher than a current model.
    That us English folk have a passion for a thing of character and beauty and history is undeniable. Judge a watch by how well it tells the time will only lead you to the conclusion you need a quartz or similar movement. Judge a watch by it's monetary value and you will only conclude that a double red Sea Dweller is better than most Patek Phillipe watches. Judge a watch for it's aesthetics and an old Sub is arguably the best looking sports watch of all time...that I dislike new ones is personal to me and I take on board all you have said.
    Yes the point about relative wealth was that a greater number of people have enough disposable income to buy into the luxury goods market.
    As regards servicing, you seem to be saying that if we do not follow the Rolex service plan we are neglecting are watches. Perhaps it might be better to start from the assumption that Rolex are talking Bolex in getting you to part with your money. It is ludicrous to state that any Oyster needs a service before it runs dry....it is easy to part a fool from his money
     
  20. tifosi

    tifosi Senior member

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    Sorry, guys. @no frills asked for it.

    [​IMG]
     
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